Urdu, Hindi: "non j-v" sentences

[MonsieurGonzalito]

Friends,

There is a big hole in my understanding of relative-correlative sentences that I need your help filling.
My problem is that grammars focus exclusively on examples that have these 2 characteristics:

- they use a relative word starting with /j/ and a correlative of the distant kind, starting with /v/ /u/
- the type of word used in the examples is the the same, for example: pronouns with pronouns: jo - vo, adjectives with adjectives: jitnaa - utnaa, etc.

Therefore, I am at a loss in front of phrases that either do not use a distant variant, such as the example provided by @littlepond jii here:

1. us_ne aise kaam kiyaa [jaise kuchh huaa hii na ho]

Or in front of examples that "mix" the word types of the word pair, for example, pronoun-adverb here:

2. mujhe vo taalaab yaad hai [jahaaN har roz milaa kartaa thaa]

So, my question is: are the examples above "true" relative-correlative sentences (whatever that means)?
Is there any qualitative or conceptual difference between, say, #1, and a sentence showing a more "typical" j-v pair, such as, for example:

3. vo apne bachche ko vaise sikhaataa hai [jaise apne chhaatroN ko sikhaataa hai]

Why #1 cannot use vaise? What is the intrinsic, conceptual difference between #1 and #3?

I know there are plenty of these "mixed pair" examples, and that it is wrong to perceive them as an anomaly.
But what is their place, in relation to the "j-v", same-word-type examples provided in grammars?
Do they express a "weaker" correlation, or something like that?

Any comments or orientation are welcome.

 

[littlepond]

3. vo apne bachche ko vaise sikhaataa hai [jaise apne chhaatroN ko sikhaataa hai]

It should be "aise" instead of "vaise" in the above sentence. In other words, "voh apne bachche ko aise paRhaataa hai jaise apne chhatroN ko" (there is no need of repeating the verb at the end, given that you are not comparing some other verb action).

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

I copied the "sikhaataa" sentence verbatim from here:
Relative Clauses
(the very last sentence, .7, in the excercises' answers)
But I take your point that the author might have been overly wordy for didactic purposes.

However, your response is interesting, because goes to the crux of my question. Different verb actions aside, why do you think that aise is more becoming than (or indeed, the only choice instead of) vaise in that example?

What is the pattern, rule, general concept, usage, whatever?
Grammars are no help at all on this, because, like I said, they revolve around /j/-/v/ clauses.

 

[aevynn]

2. mujhe vo taalaab yaad hai [jahaaN (???) har roz milaa kartaa thaa]

This sentence needs something. If the subject of the relative clause is supposed to be maiN, that can be maybe be dropped, but the person whom I met cannot be dropped:

... jahaaN (maiN) tum_se har roz milaa kartaa thaa.​

​

If the subject of the relative clause is suppsoed to be ham, then it shouldn't be dropped:

... jahaaN ham har roz milaa karte the.​

​

Or in front of examples that "mix" the word types of the word pair, for example, pronoun-adverb here:

2. mujhe vo taalaab yaad hai [jahaaN har roz milaa kartaa thaa]

I'm a little puzzled about why this type of sentence is puzzling. In English, it's just fine to say:

I remember the pond where we used to meet every day.​

Is this type of sentence really impermissible in Spanish? If I plug the above English sentence into Google Translate, it gives me "Recuerdo el estanque donde nos reuníamos todos los días," which seems to be of the same form, but maybe it is a bad translation. All that seems to be happening with this so-called "mixing" is just that the syntactic role that the referent plays in the matrix clause is different from the role it plays in the relative clause, but that's extremely mundane.

why do you think that aise is more becoming than (or indeed, the only choice instead of) vaise in that example?

What is the pattern, rule, general concept, usage, whatever?

I don't have an answer to this right now, but let me just add the observation that, if you swap the order of the clauses, then vaise becomes the only natural option: wo(h) jaise apne chhaatroN ko paRhaataa hai, vaise hii apne bachchoN ko bhii paRhaataa hai.

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

I'm a little puzzled about why this type of sentence is puzzling. In English, it's just fine to say:

I remember the pond where we used to meet every day.​

Is this type of sentence really impermissible in Spanish? If I plug the above English sentence into Google Translate, it gives me "Recuerdo el estanque donde nos reuníamos todos los días," which seems to be of the same form, but maybe it is a bad translation.

The translation is good in Spanish.

Notice that I am not saying that the sentence be "puzzling", as

vo taalaab yaad hai [jahaaN ham har roz milaa karte haiN]
is still of the "v-j" type.
All I am asking, is why, or when, it is permissible for a relative-correlative pair not to follow a j-v (or v-j pattern) and use proximal correlatives instead.
And I assumed that the mix of syntactic roles had something to do with it, but apparently it doesn't.

One clue might be what you point out here:

wo(h) jaise apne chhaatroN ko paRhaataa hai, vaise hii apne bachchoN ko bhii paRhaataa hai.

that when the sentence starts with a centrally-headed realative, followed by a correlative (what some call a "truly correlative" sentence), then the relationship between the two words is much more deterministic/tighter, i.e., it is required to be j-v.

 

[littlepond]

that when the sentence starts with a centrally-headed realative, followed by a correlative (what some call a "truly correlative" sentence), then the relationship between the two words is much more deterministic/tighter, i.e., it is required to be j-v.

But one could say equally well the following:

voh jaise apne chhaatroN ko paRhaataa hai, aise hii apne bachchoN ko bhii paRhaataa hai.

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

This

voh jaise apne chhaatroN ko paRhaataa hai, aise hii apne bachchoN ko bhii paRhaataa hai.

seems to be in contradiction with this

I don't have an answer to this right now, but let me just add the observation that, if you swap the order of the clauses, then vaise becomes the only natural option: wo(h) jaise apne chhaatroN ko paRhaataa hai, vaise hii apne bachchoN ko bhii paRhaataa hai.

Perhaps the two sentences (with "aise" and "vaise") would convey slightly different ideas?

 

[littlepond]

Perhaps the two sentences (with "aise" and "vaise") would convey slightly different ideas?

No. With "vaise" here, some could feel slightly more force in the sentence.