Urdu, Hindi, [Persian?]: ke bare meN - origin

[MonsieurGonzalito]

Friends,

I am curious about the "bare" part of the compound postposition ke bare meN = "about, regarding, in relation to"
The Hindi Oxford/McGregor dictionary puts that it comes from a word baraa, and adds a (P.) abbreviation to it (which stands for "Persian" in that dictionary).
I can't find words like برا or بارہ in the Urdu Lughat or in a Persian dictionary (i.e., nothing that seems to be etymologically related).
And the "bare" adverb in modern Hindi/Urdu (= "finally, in the end") also doesn't seem related.

It would also seem that baraa (or variations of it) comes from Middle Persian, and that variations of it were used from old times in the construction of nexuses, apparently from an ancient word meaning or "matter" or "thing". But I don't know the first thing about that language, so I can't validate that in any way.

Does anyone shed happen to have any information about the origins of that "bare"?
Thanks in advance

 

[desi4life]

Friends,

I am curious about the "bare" part of the compound postposition ke bare meN = "about, regarding, in relation to"
The Hindi Oxford/McGregor dictionary puts that it comes from a word baraa, and adds a (P.) abbreviation to it (which stands for "Persian" in that dictionary).
I can't find words like برا or بارہ in the Urdu Lughat or in a Persian dictionary (i.e., nothing that seems to be etymologically related).
And the "bare" adverb in modern Hindi/Urdu (= "finally, in the end") also doesn't seem related.

It would also seem that baraa (or variations of it) comes from Middle Persian, and that variations of it were used from old times in the construction of nexuses, apparently from an ancient word meaning or "matter" or "thing". But I don't know the first thing about that language, so I can't validate that in any way.

Does anyone shed happen to have any information about the origins of that "bare"?
Thanks in advance

Firstly, it’s important to correct your transliteration/pronunciation. The word is “baare” and as a postposition it’s the Hindi/Urdu declined form of Persian “baara”. Platts and Urdu Lughat do have an entry for “baara”.

Example from Platts:
P باره bāra (from bār), s.m. Time, turn; regard, respect: — bāre-meṅ (-ke), In respect of, concerning (e.g. kis-ke bāre-meṅ, In respect of whom?).

Persian dictionaries also have an entry for “baara”.

Example from Hayyim:
باره (۱) (bareh) Noun Regard, respect. Behalf.
دربارۀ (dar-barey' eh) Preposition 1. Regarding, about, concerning. 2. In behalf of. Ex. دربارۀ این شخص چه عقیده دارید؟
باره (۲) Noun = بارو A rampart, etc.
باره (۳) Noun = باری God.
باره (۴) Noun = بار Time, turn.
دیگر باره The second time, the next time.

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

Oh, I am an idiot. Thanks!

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

باره (۴) Noun = بار Time, turn.
دیگر باره The second time, the next time.

Ah, it is the same baara(h) as in dobaara(h), then!

 

[marrish]

(Some interesting facts from the wondrous world of Urdu

Persian باره --- >

pre-positional phrase "dar baara-yi X" /baarah-i-/ X در بارهٴ​

(Modern Persian dær bâ:ré-ye)​

​

-------------> Urdu X kē baarē mēN کے بارے میں (post-positional phrase)​

Nowadays the standard spelling of baare in the postpositional phrase is بارے /baarē/ with baRii ye but at least until a century ago it was as well written with ہ instead,
ie. کے بارہ مین ۔

Another matter, for the thread is titled, fortunately or unfortunately, Urdu, is the expression "compound postposition" (used in the OP), which covers only one usage. Not only can the noun baare take literally any "position", as unlike Hindi (only post-position) or, Persian (only pre-position) in Urdu all these can be said, but also occurs in izaafat constructions.

1. کتاب کے بارے میں (postposition) ٰ kitaab ke baare meN
2. کتاب کے بارے (postpostion) kitaab ke baare
3. بارے کتاب کے (circumposition) (?) baare kitaab ke
4. بارۂ کتاب میں (circumposition) baara-e-kitaab meN
5. بارہّ کتاب (preposition) baara-e-kitaab
6. در بارۂ کتاب (preposition) dar baara-e-kitaab