Urdu, Hindi, Punjabi: maiN hii ne میں ہی نے मैं ही ने ਮੈਂ ਹੀ ਨੇ

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marrish

Senior Member
اُردو Urdu
Is "maiN hii ne" usual and does it sound well?

کیونکہ میں ہی نے یہ فرمایا ہے kyoNkih maiN hii ne yih farmaayaa hae.

From an Urdu version of the Old Testament (Ezekiel), verse 34.

What are the known grammar rules on the subject?
 
  • Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ As far as I know this is grammatically sound. The "hii" particle employed to provide emphasis is supposed to come after the subject and before the postposition.

    e.g vuh > us with a postposition

    us + hii + se

    usii se puuchho.................NOT us se hii puuchho.

    Of course "hii" can be "displaced" if the need arises to shift the emphasis elsewhere.
     
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    Cilquiestsuens

    Senior Member
    French
    ^ As far as I know this is grammatically sound. The "hii" particle employed to provide emphasis is supposed come after the subjectt and before the postposition.

    e.g vuh > us with a postposition

    us + hii + se

    usii se puuchho.................NOT us se hii puuchho.

    Of course "hii" can be "displaced" if the need arises to shift the emphasis elsewhere.
    But ne is not a postposition; it is an ergative particle that cannot be compared to se and that is not usually separated from the verb.

    maiN ne to... and never maiN to ne...

    unhoN ne to... and never unhoN to ne... or unhoN hii ne...

    To me the main hi ne is rather unusual (as compared to maiN ne hii) and seems to mark a very strong emphasis or... a typo.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Technically, "ne" is a postposition* albeit its function is different from "se" (ablative & Instrumental), "meN" (locative), "ko" (dative), "kaa/ke/kii" (genitive) and so on. The example in the OP concerns "hii" and not "to" and my explanation is linked to "hii" only. For me, Cilquiestsuens SaaHib, as I've said before, the sentence is fine.

    * If you wish to say that "ne" like the postpositions forces the nominative case to become oblique, that is also fine with me.
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    But ne is not a postposition; it is an ergative particle that cannot be compared to se and that is not usually separated from the verb...[..]
    Cilquiestsuens SaaHib, giving this matter a little more thought, you are correct and I am wrong with regard to "ne" NOT being a postposition! Apologies.

    Regarding the rest, "maiN hii ne" does sound unusual compared with "maiN ne hii" but I think it is not wrong. On the contrary, I believe it is more accurate from a grammatical perspective with "hii" following the subject immediately as opposed to it following "ne".

    Edit:

    maiN + ne > maiN ne (NOT mujh ne)...Therefore this "proves" that "ne" is not a postposition

    vuh + ne > vuh ne ? NO! us ne! Here it seems to have the postposition effect. What's going on?
     
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    Dib

    Senior Member
    Bengali (India)
    Cilquiestsuens SaaHib, giving this matter a little more thought, you are correct and I am wrong with regard to "ne" NOT being a postposition! Apologies.

    Regarding the rest, "maiN hii ne" does sound unusual compared with "maiN ne hii" but I think it is not wrong. On the contrary, I believe it is more accurate from a grammatical perspective with "hii" following the subject immediately as opposed to it following "ne".

    Edit:

    maiN + ne > maiN ne (NOT mujh ne)...Therefore this "proves" that "ne" is not a postposition

    vuh + ne > vuh ne ? NO! us ne! Here it seems to have the postposition effect. What's going on?

    On top of that you also have,
    vo (plural) + ne = unhoN ne

    matlab, chaahe jo bhii ho, "ne" koii ma'muulii chiiz nahiiN hai. :D

    EDIT: Actually, this gives me a plausible historical hint at "maiN ne" ... Historically "maiN" might have been the "-ne form" of a first person singular, like Brahbhasha hauN, Gujarati huN (both from Skt "aham" and Prakrit variations thereof), in other words, the paradigm might have been hauN(?)-maiN (ne)-mujh ko just like vo - unhoN ne - un ko. This is more or less idle musing though, not based on actual evidence (beyond the historical hauN, etc. forms).
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    marrish SaaHib, I hope other Punjabi speakers will confirm this. In Punjabi, we would n't use "ne" in this sentence.

    kyuuN kih maiN-ii e farmaayaa e.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    This is the usual way of adding "hii" to pronouns.


    ham hii ne > hamiiN ne


    tum hii ne > tumiiN ne

    is/us hii ne > isii/usii ne

    in/un hii ne > inhiiN/unhiiN ne (inhiiN logoN ne le lenaa dopaTTah meraa >> inhiiN ne le lenaa dopaTTah meraa


    This leaves maiN and tuu

    Why not then..

    maiN hii ne

    tuu hii ne?
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    It's again from some kind of a Christian site in East Punjabi :ਮੈਂ ਹੀ ਨੇ ਤੁਹਾਨੂ ਘੁੱਪ ਹਨੇਰੇ ਵਿੱਚੋਂ ਬਾਹਰ ਕੱਢਿਆ. (maiN hii ne tuhaanuuN k_ùpp hanère vichoN báá_hr káD_hiyaa) Apart from this I couldn't find anything similar.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    It's again from some kind of a Christian site in East Punjabi :ਮੈਂ ਹੀ ਨੇ ਤੁਹਾਨੂ ਘੁੱਪ ਹਨੇਰੇ ਵਿੱਚੋਂ ਬਾਹਰ ਕੱਢਿਆ. (maiN hii ne tuhaanuuN k_ùpp hanère vichoN báá_hr káD_hiyaa)Apart from this I couldn't find anything similar.
    It does not sound like a genuine Punjabi sentence to me. But as they say, to err is human!:)
     

    amiramir

    Senior Member
    English-USA
    Agreed re the lack of 'ne' in the Punjabi sentence. Though, contrary to post #10, in my family's Punjabi, the 'ne' is used in the third person (both sing. and plural), but not in any other person
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Is "maiN hii ne" usual and does it sound well?

    کیونکہ میں ہی نے یہ فرمایا ہے kyoNkih maiN hii ne yih farmaayaa hae.

    From an Urdu version of the Old Testament (Ezekiel), verse 34.

    What are the known grammar rules on the subject?
    I think this should clarify your unease about this sentence. Here Shamsur Rahman Faruqi is talking about Maulana Hasrat Mohani's criticism about many faults that crop up in poetry (Urdu).

    "Maulana kaa irshaad bi_lkul ba-jaa hai kih "hii" ko usii lafz ke faur-an ba3d isti3maal karnaa chaahiye jis par zor denaa maqsuud ho."

    So, based on this...kyoNkih maiN hii ne yih farmaayaa hae.... is correct.

    Continuing with Faruqi...

    "lekin maujuudah muHaavarah aahistah aahistah lafz "hii" kii jagah badalne par maa'il ho rahaa hai. chunaaNchih yih misaaleN mulaaHizah hoN.

    maiN ne hii aap ko xat likhaa thaa

    yih kitaab Lakhnau meN hii mil jaa'e gii

    dhuup kii hii tapish kyaa kam thii

    paa'o bhar hii ghii bahut ho gaa

    in tamaam jumloN meN "hii" apnii rivaayatii jagah par nahiiN hai., lekin Ghalatii maHsuus nahiiN hotii. vajh yih hai kih jis lafz par zor denaa maqsuud ho, agar is ke ba'd ko'ii 3alaamat-i-faa3ilii, Harf-i-jaar, ism-i-miqdaar vaGhairah aa jaa'e to "hii" ko us ke ba3d rakhte haiN. ya3nii....

    maiN hii ne aap ko xat likhaa thaa ...ki jagah

    maiN ne hii aap ko xat likhaa thaa ... bolte haiN. yahii muHaavirah 3aam hai aur mere xayaal meN is kaa tatabbu3 karnaa chaahiye."
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Is "maiN hii ne" usual and does it sound well?

    کیونکہ میں ہی نے یہ فرمایا ہے kyoNkih maiN hii ne yih farmaayaa hae.

    From an Urdu version of the Old Testament (Ezekiel), verse 34.

    What are the known grammar rules on the subject?
    jise chaahe tuu vuh mahiiN kyoN hu'ii
    Ilaahii maiN aisii HasiiN kyoN hu'ii

    Qaasim aur Zuhra 1910 page 27

    mahiiN = maiN + hii
     
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