Urdu, Hindi, Punjabi: maiN hii ne میں ہی نے मैं ही ने ਮੈਂ ਹੀ ਨੇ
^ As far as I know this is grammatically sound. The "hii" particle employed to provide emphasis is supposed to come after the subject and before the postposition.
e.g vuh > us with a postposition
us + hii + se
usii se puuchho.................NOT us se hii puuchho.
Of course "hii" can be "displaced" if the need arises to shift the emphasis elsewhere.
e.g vuh > us with a postposition
us + hii + se
usii se puuchho.................NOT us se hii puuchho.
Of course "hii" can be "displaced" if the need arises to shift the emphasis elsewhere.
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But ne is not a postposition; it is an ergative particle that cannot be compared to se and that is not usually separated from the verb.
maiN ne to... and never maiN to ne...
unhoN ne to... and never unhoN to ne... or unhoN hii ne...
To me the main hi ne is rather unusual (as compared to maiN ne hii) and seems to mark a very strong emphasis or... a typo.
Technically, "ne" is a postposition* albeit its function is different from "se" (ablative & Instrumental), "meN" (locative), "ko" (dative), "kaa/ke/kii" (genitive) and so on. The example in the OP concerns "hii" and not "to" and my explanation is linked to "hii" only. For me, Cilquiestsuens SaaHib, as I've said before, the sentence is fine.
* If you wish to say that "ne" like the postpositions forces the nominative case to become oblique, that is also fine with me.
* If you wish to say that "ne" like the postpositions forces the nominative case to become oblique, that is also fine with me.
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Cilquiestsuens SaaHib, giving this matter a little more thought, you are correct and I am wrong with regard to "ne" NOT being a postposition! Apologies.
Regarding the rest, "maiN hii ne" does sound unusual compared with "maiN ne hii" but I think it is not wrong. On the contrary, I believe it is more accurate from a grammatical perspective with "hii" following the subject immediately as opposed to it following "ne".
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maiN + ne > maiN ne (NOT mujh ne)...Therefore this "proves" that "ne" is not a postposition
vuh + ne > vuh ne ? NO! us ne! Here it seems to have the postposition effect. What's going on?
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On top of that you also have,
vo (plural) + ne = unhoN ne
matlab, chaahe jo bhii ho, "ne" koii ma'muulii chiiz nahiiN hai.
EDIT: Actually, this gives me a plausible historical hint at "maiN ne" ... Historically "maiN" might have been the "-ne form" of a first person singular, like Brahbhasha hauN, Gujarati huN (both from Skt "aham" and Prakrit variations thereof), in other words, the paradigm might have been hauN(?)-maiN (ne)-mujh ko just like vo - unhoN ne - un ko. This is more or less idle musing though, not based on actual evidence (beyond the historical hauN, etc. forms).
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I was about to ask this. Thanks for the preemption.
This is the usual way of adding "hii" to pronouns.
ham hii ne > hamiiN ne
tum hii ne > tumiiN ne
is/us hii ne > isii/usii ne
in/un hii ne > inhiiN/unhiiN ne (inhiiN logoN ne le lenaa dopaTTah meraa >> inhiiN ne le lenaa dopaTTah meraa
This leaves maiN and tuu
Why not then..
maiN hii ne
tuu hii ne?
ham hii ne > hamiiN ne
tum hii ne > tumiiN ne
is/us hii ne > isii/usii ne
in/un hii ne > inhiiN/unhiiN ne (inhiiN logoN ne le lenaa dopaTTah meraa >> inhiiN ne le lenaa dopaTTah meraa
This leaves maiN and tuu
Why not then..
maiN hii ne
tuu hii ne?
I agree with this. In fact, a lot of Punjabi dialects drop the "ne" all together. os kitā, oh dasseya. But that's off topic.
It does not sound like a genuine Punjabi sentence to me. But as they say, to err is human!
What doesn't sound genuine to you?It does not sound like a genuine Punjabi sentence to me. But as they say, to err is human!
Please refer to your reply in # post 10.
I think this should clarify your unease about this sentence. Here Shamsur Rahman Faruqi is talking about Maulana Hasrat Mohani's criticism about many faults that crop up in poetry (Urdu).
"Maulana kaa irshaad bi_lkul ba-jaa hai kih "hii" ko usii lafz ke faur-an ba3d isti3maal karnaa chaahiye jis par zor denaa maqsuud ho."
So, based on this...kyoNkih maiN hii ne yih farmaayaa hae.... is correct.
Continuing with Faruqi...
"lekin maujuudah muHaavarah aahistah aahistah lafz "hii" kii jagah badalne par maa'il ho rahaa hai. chunaaNchih yih misaaleN mulaaHizah hoN.
maiN ne hii aap ko xat likhaa thaa
yih kitaab Lakhnau meN hii mil jaa'e gii
dhuup kii hii tapish kyaa kam thii
paa'o bhar hii ghii bahut ho gaa
in tamaam jumloN meN "hii" apnii rivaayatii jagah par nahiiN hai., lekin Ghalatii maHsuus nahiiN hotii. vajh yih hai kih jis lafz par zor denaa maqsuud ho, agar is ke ba'd ko'ii 3alaamat-i-faa3ilii, Harf-i-jaar, ism-i-miqdaar vaGhairah aa jaa'e to "hii" ko us ke ba3d rakhte haiN. ya3nii....
maiN hii ne aap ko xat likhaa thaa ...ki jagah
maiN ne hii aap ko xat likhaa thaa ... bolte haiN. yahii muHaavirah 3aam hai aur mere xayaal meN is kaa tatabbu3 karnaa chaahiye."
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jise chaahe tuu vuh mahiiN kyoN hu'ii
Ilaahii maiN aisii HasiiN kyoN hu'ii
Qaasim aur Zuhra 1910 page 27
mahiiN = maiN + hii