Thank you, Faylasoof SaaHib, for the above. No one should be left in any doubt concerning your views on your Urdu and others'. We seem to be not only singing from different hymn sheets but also the language of each sheet is different. Good manners and common decency compels me to terminate this exchange of views at this juncture.
Thank you, Faylasoof SaaHib, for the above. No one should be left in any doubt concerning your views on your Urdu and others'. We seem to be not only singing from different hymn sheets but also the language of each sheet is different. Good manners and common decency compels me to terminate this exchange of views at this juncture.
marrish SaaHib, blame Tony SaaHib for my re-starting this thread yet again! I have had a quick read of it and would like to ask you a couple of questions.
1. I know it has been a while but can you shed some light on the authors of these sentences? Where do they originate from, in geographical terms. It would be interesting to delve a little into this.
2. You quoted Platts entry for "ne". At the time I did not pay too much attention to it. Are you (or anyone else) aware of the "dative use of ne in "Western Hindi"?
H نے नेne [for orig. le, Ap. Prk. लइए, or लहिए; S. लब्धे], postp. of the agent or active case in High Hindī, and Urdū (orig. a dialec. dat. affix of W. Hindī).
I'd like to know more about the dative use of ne in Western Urdu-Hindi. It would be very helpful to have a few examples.
It is interesting to note that the Butt paper suggests tha 'ne' is only used to express desire and not necessity. One of the theories is that ne is being inserted to get rid of the overloaded ko "mujhe jana hai" can mean "I want to go" or "I need to go." He claims usage of ne can only mean the former. Would you agree?
Yes, I'd agree to the extent that it expresses intent rather than desire. The element of necessity may be well connected with the situation but the speaker doesn't emphasise it. I can't say anything about the theory of getting rid of mujhe jaanaa hai. I don't think that anyone does it on purpose to get rid of the mentioned construction. By the way, it's Mrs. Butt
The correct words are , Apko nahi jaana hai ?? , nahi , mujhe nahi jaana. There is a difference of words according to their region. But the correct words are correct. Even in English language we see that original spellings of few words are now changed for e.g.
1) Colour changed to color.
2) Programme changed to Program.
so there is not much to worry about. You can either use "Mujhe" or "maine". If you use maine then people would think that you are influenced from Punjabi.
The correct words are:
aap ko nahiiN jaanaa hai?
nahiiN, mujhe nahiiN jaanaa. (N is for the nasal n)
People might not think this when they have read all the posts of this thread.
I couldn't find my notes but it should be easy to put the sentences I provided in the search machine (in their original script, not the transliteration) as they are faithfully presented in the post. I should have attached links to the sentences, which is a shortcoming on my part. Possibly we can trace the whereabouts of the authors from the sites they published the sentences.
Originally Posted by marrish
Regarding the question whether it occurs in the speech of Hindi speakers, let me quote several examples from the net: बाबा हम ने खरीदना तो नही था baabaa ham ne khariidnaa to nahii thaa उसने कहा - मैंने नहीं खाना us ne kahaa – mainne nahiiN khaanaa अब निर्णय आपनेलेना है कि आप किसका साथ देते हैं ab nirNRay aapne lenaa hai ki aap kiskaa saath dete haiN ऐसा उसने नहीं करना था aisaa usne nahiiN karnaa thaa अगर किसी ने चाय पीनी हो तो स्टेशन के बाहर जाना पड़ता है agar kisii ne chaay piinii ho to sTeshan ke baahar jaanaa paRtaa hai
I think what Platts described as W. Hindi are not only Rajasthani dialects/languages but something more. Unfortunately there were no examples available in the dictionary, but we can be sure that the situation used to be so as early as in the 19th century.
Here is an example from Mulla (Asadullah) Wajhi's "Sabras" (1635/1636), an eminent figure in the court of Golconda, in the Deccan. Please do not forget that there was a migration of people to the south from and around the Delhi area as a consequence of invasions.
jahaaN Ghamzah kare Ghamzah, vahaaN 3aashiq ne kyaa karnaa
(See page 46-47 of ther attached document for an explanation)
http://www.mgimo.ru/files/31392/6.pdf
The author of this document (Alexander Sigordkiy) also connects this usage with Punjabi. As has already been stated in this thread, there is no "ne" usage in obligation type of sentences in Punjabi.
"First of all, the ne postposition as a subject marker in infinitival modal constructions is obviously an impact of Punjabi (where ne is a subject marker of modal constructions with obligation modality [Zograf 1990: 47]."
Most inspiring. We have got another mile stone now. I've read the document you were kind to attach and there is another excerpt which is interesting, especially in the light of Platts' definition of ''ne'':
p. 38 [...] This feature of Dakkhini is not unique. In modern Hindi the postposition ko (the historical synonym of ne) behaves itself in the same way in participle clauses [...]
p. 50 Hindi has developed an economic and elegant system of coding the two privileged positions of subject and direct object. Historical synonymy of postpositions ne and ko, still existing in Hariani, Bangaru and some other dialects, is removed.
In this perspective the reference to Punjabi appears uncalled for and, in the light of this thread, not correct.
Thank you very much for this finding.
From a book dealing with the analysis of the Haryanvi language I came to know that in this language the Urdu/Hindi sentence ab hameN jaanaa ho gaa is इब हम नै जाणा होगा ib ham nai jaaNRaa hogaa. I'm pretty sure Haryanvi and KhB have been closely related and influenced one another.
Another point about Urdu: in a newspaper published from Delhi and Lakhnau I read the following:
http://www.siyasitaqdeer.com/newspaper-view.php?newsid=2207&date=2014-08-30
اس موقعے پر وزیرِ اعظم نواز شریف نے کہا کہ اگر میں فوج سے رابطہ نہ بھی کرتا تو فوج نے یہ کردار ادا کرنا تھا کیونکہ دارلحکومت کی حفاظت کی ذمہ داری فوج کی ہے۔
us mauq3e par waziir-e-a3azam nawaaz shariif ne kahaa kih agar maiN fauj se raabitah nah bhii kartaa to fauj ne yih kirdaar adaa karnaa thaa kyoNkih daarulHukuumat kii Hifaazat kii zimmah daarii fauj kii hai. Literal quotation of Mr. Sharif or their own wording? Any way, the editors didn't seem to have any qualms about this fauj ne karnaa thaa at least.
Another point about Urdu: in a newspaper published from Delhi and Lakhnau I read the following:
http://www.siyasitaqdeer.com/newspaper-view.php?newsid=2207&date=2014-08-30
اس موقعے پر وزیرِ اعظم نواز شریف نے کہا کہ اگر میں فوج سے رابطہ نہ بھی کرتا تو فوج نے یہ کردار ادا کرنا تھا کیونکہ دارلحکومت کی حفاظت کی ذمہ داری فوج کی ہے۔
us mauq3e par waziir-e-a3azam nawaaz shariif ne kahaa kih agar maiN fauj se raabitah nah bhii kartaa to fauj ne yih kirdaar adaa karnaa thaa kyoNkih daarulHukuumat kii Hifaazat kii zimmah daarii fauj kii hai. Literal quotation of Mr. Sharif or their own wording? Any way, the editors didn't seem to have any qualms about this fauj ne karnaa thaa at least.
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Thank you for this example from Haryanavi. There is certainly a strong possibility that it could have influenced other languages in its vicinity.
Could the paper be quoting the Pakistani prime minister verbatim?
This time there is even a shi3r to be presented:
مجروح ہوئے مائل کس آفتِ دوراں پر
اے حضرتِ من تم نے دل بھی نہ لگا جانا (Majrooh)
majruuH hu'e maa'il kis aafat-e-dauraaN par
ae Hazrat-e-man tum ne dil bhii nah lagaa jaanaa
I found it in the Farhang-e-Asafiyyah under من.ف۔کلمہ .
مجروح ہوئے مائل کس آفتِ دوراں پر
اے حضرتِ من تم نے دل بھی نہ لگا جانا (Majrooh)
majruuH hu'e maa'il kis aafat-e-dauraaN par
ae Hazrat-e-man tum ne dil bhii nah lagaa jaanaa
I found it in the Farhang-e-Asafiyyah under من.ف۔کلمہ .
In a book named "Karkhandārī Dialect of Delhi Urdu" published in 1961 in New Delhi, Dr. Gopi Chand Narang described the usage of this construction and I quote:
"The first person singular agent mæ̃ ne میں نے is also used as singular dative : e.g.
mæ̃ ne khɑnɑ pəkɑnɑ hæ میں نے کھانا پکانا ہے "
Gopi Chand Narang, Kark̠h̠andārī Dialect of Delhi Urdu, New Delhi 1961, p. 51.
"The first person singular agent mæ̃ ne میں نے is also used as singular dative : e.g.
mæ̃ ne khɑnɑ pəkɑnɑ hæ میں نے کھانا پکانا ہے "
Gopi Chand Narang, Kark̠h̠andārī Dialect of Delhi Urdu, New Delhi 1961, p. 51.
بہت خوب دریافت کی ہے، آپ نے، مرّش صاحب۔ میرے خیال میں اب کوئی شکّ باقی نہیں رہا کہ میں نےلاہور جانا ہے والا لطیفہ اب اتنا دلکش اور مضحکہ خیز نہیں رہا جتنا کبھی تھا! بہت بہت شکریہ۔
marrash SaaHib, I believe in this shi3r, in the second misra3, the meaning is....
ai Hazrat-i-man, tum ne dil bhii nah lagaanaa jaanaa
What do you think?
Summary of usage of "maiN ne vahaaN jaanaa hai" type of sentence by mother-tongue Urdu speakers, in chronological order.
1. 1635 meN Mullaa Asadullah Wajhii ne "Sabras" kii tasniif kii. Baabaa-i-Urdu, janaab-i-Abdul Haq ne ise 1932 meN apnii nigraanii meN Aurangabad se shaa'i3 kiyaa. aap safhah no. 182 mulaahazah kiijiye.
Sabras - Mulla Wajhi (Dakkani Urdu)
"jahaaN Ghamzah kare Ghamze vahaaN 3aashiq *ne* kyaa karnaa"
2. 1899 meN Abdul Halim Sharar ne ek naavil ba-naam “Hasan-Angelina” likhaa jis ke safhah no.9 par yih jumlah likhaa hu’aa hai.
jab xudaa ne bachaanaa hotaa hai to yuuN hotaa hai.
Hasan Anglina By Abdul Haleem Sharar : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
3. Sayyid Ahmed Dihlavi, in his book entitled “LuGhaatunnisaa’” published in 1917, over a hundred years ago, writes on page 2, "go aaj se taqriib-an do saal peshtar jo ham ne is luGhaat kii qiimat kaa taxmiinah lagaayaa thaa vuh saaRhe tiin ruupayah fii jild thaa. aur ab jo kaaGhaz kii giraanii ne aaNkheN dikhaa diiN to hamaarii siTTii gum ho ga'ii. *magar ham ne is kii qiimat baRhaanii thii nah baRhaa'ii."
Lughtun nis
4. Maulavii Nazeer Ahmed kii kahaanii- kuchh merii aur kuchh un kii zabaanii- Farhat Ali Beg – July 1927 (page 40)
"den-len sab kuchh karte the magar Hisaab-kitaab sirf duusroN kii kitaaboN yaa un ke dil meN thaa. kuchh thoRaa bahut logoN ke kahne sun_ne se, mutafarriq parchoN par likh bhii liyaa thaa lekin itne baRe byopaar ke liye jaisaa daftar chaahiye ***vuh unhoN ne nah rakhnaa thaa nah rakhaa***"
Dr. Nazeer Ahmad Ki Kahani Kuchh Meri Aur Kuchh Unki Zabani by Mirza Farhatullah Beg | Rekhta
5. janaab-i-Gopi Chand Narang ne 1961 meN ek kitaab jis kaa naam "Karkhandari Dialect of Delhi Urdu" hai, us ke safhah 51 par vuh farmaate haiN...
The first person singular agent maiN ne میں نے is also used as singular dative: e.g. maiN ne khaanaa pakaanaa hai
https://www.rekhta.org/ebooks/karkhandari-dialect-of-delhi-urdu-gopi-chand-narang-ebooks?lang=hi&pageId=&targetId=&bookmarkType=&referer=&myaction=
1. 1635 meN Mullaa Asadullah Wajhii ne "Sabras" kii tasniif kii. Baabaa-i-Urdu, janaab-i-Abdul Haq ne ise 1932 meN apnii nigraanii meN Aurangabad se shaa'i3 kiyaa. aap safhah no. 182 mulaahazah kiijiye.
Sabras - Mulla Wajhi (Dakkani Urdu)
"jahaaN Ghamzah kare Ghamze vahaaN 3aashiq *ne* kyaa karnaa"
2. 1899 meN Abdul Halim Sharar ne ek naavil ba-naam “Hasan-Angelina” likhaa jis ke safhah no.9 par yih jumlah likhaa hu’aa hai.
jab xudaa ne bachaanaa hotaa hai to yuuN hotaa hai.
Hasan Anglina By Abdul Haleem Sharar : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
3. Sayyid Ahmed Dihlavi, in his book entitled “LuGhaatunnisaa’” published in 1917, over a hundred years ago, writes on page 2, "go aaj se taqriib-an do saal peshtar jo ham ne is luGhaat kii qiimat kaa taxmiinah lagaayaa thaa vuh saaRhe tiin ruupayah fii jild thaa. aur ab jo kaaGhaz kii giraanii ne aaNkheN dikhaa diiN to hamaarii siTTii gum ho ga'ii. *magar ham ne is kii qiimat baRhaanii thii nah baRhaa'ii."
Lughtun nis
4. Maulavii Nazeer Ahmed kii kahaanii- kuchh merii aur kuchh un kii zabaanii- Farhat Ali Beg – July 1927 (page 40)
"den-len sab kuchh karte the magar Hisaab-kitaab sirf duusroN kii kitaaboN yaa un ke dil meN thaa. kuchh thoRaa bahut logoN ke kahne sun_ne se, mutafarriq parchoN par likh bhii liyaa thaa lekin itne baRe byopaar ke liye jaisaa daftar chaahiye ***vuh unhoN ne nah rakhnaa thaa nah rakhaa***"
Dr. Nazeer Ahmad Ki Kahani Kuchh Meri Aur Kuchh Unki Zabani by Mirza Farhatullah Beg | Rekhta
5. janaab-i-Gopi Chand Narang ne 1961 meN ek kitaab jis kaa naam "Karkhandari Dialect of Delhi Urdu" hai, us ke safhah 51 par vuh farmaate haiN...
The first person singular agent maiN ne میں نے is also used as singular dative: e.g. maiN ne khaanaa pakaanaa hai
https://www.rekhta.org/ebooks/karkhandari-dialect-of-delhi-urdu-gopi-chand-narang-ebooks?lang=hi&pageId=&targetId=&bookmarkType=&referer=&myaction=
Thank you for sharing your comments – now that you are asking, I'm no longer certain of either whether it is an example of the "maiN ne jaanaa" construction – but for the 2nd person plural 'tum', not 1st "maiN ne or ham ne" – or whether yours is the correct reading of the second misra3's meaning.
I'd be glad to go along with the latter, but I'm not convinced because I can't remember seeing such an elision of the infinitive -naa marker.
Neither am I convinced of my earlier understanding any more so I have to expound on this point a little longer.
I consulted the text of the full Ghazal whose matla3's meaning is along with your suggestion, that is "jaanaa" is the past participle of jaannaa rather than the inf. jaanaa. The matla3 is:
غیروں
کو بھلا سمجھے اور مجکو بُرا جانا . \. سمجھے بھی تو کیا سمجھے جانا بھی تو کیا جانا
GhairoN ko bhalaa samjhe awr mujko buraa jaanaa ./. samjhe bhii to kyaa samjhe, jaanaa bhii to kyaa jaanaa
- But a completely different treatment of the "jaanaa" is introduced in the second misra3 of the second shi3r:
اک عمر کے دکھ پائے سوتے ہیں فراغت سے .\. اے غلغلہ محشر ہم کو نہ جگا جانا
ik 3umr ke dukh paa'e sote haiN faraaGhat se ./. ae GhulGhula-e-maHshar, ham ko nah jagaa jaanaa
In the above, the meaning jaanaa gives is that of future imperative 2nd person sg.;
- Further on, to illustrate my point I'm leaving out the first verses from the couplets that follow due to the constraints we have but I'm sharing the 2nd misra3s which provide the context, hoping that one or other could prove to be worthy of your attention. There must be at least one below (there is, choose one!), which supports my initial understanding:
سرمایہ صد آفت ہے دل ہی کا آ جانا sarmaayah-e-sad-aafat hae dil hii kaa aa jaanaa
ماہیت اصلی کو اپنی نہ ذرا جانا maahiyat-e-aslii ko apnii nah zaraa jaanaa
یاں ہونٹ کا ہل جانا واں بات کا پا جانا yaaN hoNT kaa hil jaanaa waaN baat kaa paa jaanaa
میں نے تو کہا کیا تھا اور آپ نے کیا جانا maiN ne to kahaa kyaa thaa aur-aap ne kyaa jaanaa
اک شور قیامت ہی نالوں نے اُٹھا جانا ik shor-e-qiyaamat hii naaloN ne uThaa jaanaa
اُن کو تو بہر صورت اک جلوہ دکھا جانا un ko tuu ba-har suurat ik jalwah dikhaa jaanaa
اُس نے دل عاشق کو مجبور وفا جانا us ne dil-e-3aashiq ko majbuur-e-wafaa jaanaa
ماہیت اصلی کو اپنی نہ ذرا جانا maahiyat-e-aslii ko apnii nah zaraa jaanaa
یاں ہونٹ کا ہل جانا واں بات کا پا جانا yaaN hoNT kaa hil jaanaa waaN baat kaa paa jaanaa
میں نے تو کہا کیا تھا اور آپ نے کیا جانا maiN ne to kahaa kyaa thaa aur-aap ne kyaa jaanaa
اک شور قیامت ہی نالوں نے اُٹھا جانا ik shor-e-qiyaamat hii naaloN ne uThaa jaanaa
اُن کو تو بہر صورت اک جلوہ دکھا جانا un ko tuu ba-har suurat ik jalwah dikhaa jaanaa
اُس نے دل عاشق کو مجبور وفا جانا us ne dil-e-3aashiq ko majbuur-e-wafaa jaanaa
and the second to the last is:
انجام ہوا اپنا آغاز محبت میں // اس شغل کو جاں فرسا ایسا تو نہ تھا جانا
anjaam hu'aa apnaa aaGhaaz-e-maHabbat meN / is shuGhl ko jaaN~farsaa aisaa to nah thaa jaanaa
after which comes the contended maqta3 with "ne lagaa jaanaa". I leave the question open.
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^ marrish SaaHib, this is the beauty of Urdu poetry, that is to say "ma3nii-aafriinii". It is not surprising that the meanings of "jaanaa" are not the same in every line.
You are right I believe. Perhaps it means "lagaa kar jaanaa".
You are right I believe. Perhaps it means "lagaa kar jaanaa".
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I would definitely keep it as one of the interpretative options the closing verse offers, while I think it follows the format of اک شور قیامت ہی نالوں نے اُٹھا جانا (ik shor-e-qiyaamat hii naaloN ne uThaa jaanaa), as if to say, میری فریادیں محشر کا غوغا بپا کر (جانے) والی ہیں merii faryaadeN to bilaa kisii qism ke shub,h-o-shak ke maHshar kaa GhoGhaa ba~paa kar *jaane* vaaliiN haiN: shaa3ir ke naale qiyaamat kaa shor uThaa paa'eN ge۔ A simple example would be "kar jaanaa" as in e.g. "woh dobaarah us se dhokah kar ga'e". In the paraphrase, no understood 'kar (ke)' is intended. I'm not sure if I can explain it better at this time.
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An 1882 Hindi grammar already noted this.
In 2011 Elena Bashir said this in The Annual of Urdu Studies (I quoted it once before somewhere up-thread),
The "separate variety of Pakistani Urdu" must've been thus thriving around Dehli until 1882 at the minimum.
In 2011 Elena Bashir said this in The Annual of Urdu Studies (I quoted it once before somewhere up-thread),
The "separate variety of Pakistani Urdu" must've been thus thriving around Dehli until 1882 at the minimum.
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Just remind us the name of this 1882 Hindi Grammar book please.
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OR
"bhaiyya ye tu ne kiya karaa",
"mazaak(q) kar raaaa",
"main tere ko samjha raha yuN na karaa kar"
I read the heated discussion with great interest 😀 And I want to add a couple of quotes from Russian-language sources...
1. The opinion that "maiNne jaanaa hai" constructions in Pakistani Urdu are a Punjabi influence seems to have been around for a long time. In the "Practical textbook of Urdu" by B.Klyuev, which was published back in 1962, in the section " Bazari Urdu " it is written:
"Indigenous Lahores, whose mother tongue is Punjabi, speaking Hindustani, often replace the postposition "ko" with the postposition "ne" in phrases signifying must:
"maiNne jaanaa hai" instead " mujhe jaanaa hai". "
2. Quote from the book "Essay on the Grammar of Modern Braj" 1988 by V.P. Liperovsky:
"The postposition "neN ( naiN, nai, ne )" serves as a sign of a form that can be called agentive (ergative) or (to the extent that this postposition shows, beyond the scope of combinations with the name of the subject of the action, the ability to occupy the position of the postposition "kuuN", usually following the form of the indirect plural case of the name and thus revealing an additional distribution with the postposition "ai", usually accompanying the form of the indirect case of the singular) agentive-directive (in the sense of manifesting itself either as agentive or as directive (or dative-accusative):
" phir douu panchin neN bu jagaayau." - Then both birds woke him up.
" jaa pai tuu apane saatau beTan neN maaNgi liijo. " - From her you ask (to return) your seven sons.
" gaRpanchii cugau apane baccan neN daibe lage. " - The birds began to feed their chicks.
" ... chaiuu kumaaran neN pyaas bhuuNk lagii .. six princes felt thirsty and hungry.
1. The opinion that "maiNne jaanaa hai" constructions in Pakistani Urdu are a Punjabi influence seems to have been around for a long time. In the "Practical textbook of Urdu" by B.Klyuev, which was published back in 1962, in the section " Bazari Urdu " it is written:
"Indigenous Lahores, whose mother tongue is Punjabi, speaking Hindustani, often replace the postposition "ko" with the postposition "ne" in phrases signifying must:
"maiNne jaanaa hai" instead " mujhe jaanaa hai". "
2. Quote from the book "Essay on the Grammar of Modern Braj" 1988 by V.P. Liperovsky:
"The postposition "neN ( naiN, nai, ne )" serves as a sign of a form that can be called agentive (ergative) or (to the extent that this postposition shows, beyond the scope of combinations with the name of the subject of the action, the ability to occupy the position of the postposition "kuuN", usually following the form of the indirect plural case of the name and thus revealing an additional distribution with the postposition "ai", usually accompanying the form of the indirect case of the singular) agentive-directive (in the sense of manifesting itself either as agentive or as directive (or dative-accusative):
" phir douu panchin neN bu jagaayau." - Then both birds woke him up.
" jaa pai tuu apane saatau beTan neN maaNgi liijo. " - From her you ask (to return) your seven sons.
" gaRpanchii cugau apane baccan neN daibe lage. " - The birds began to feed their chicks.
" ... chaiuu kumaaran neN pyaas bhuuNk lagii .. six princes felt thirsty and hungry.
Thank you. You should have also added that after reading indisputable evidence, the Russian authors of these books are wrong.
As I understood from the discussion in Pakistan this form is strongly associated with the Punjab. Given the proportion of Punjabis in the population of the country, it is not surprising that it has become widespread.
As for Indian Urdu, it seems to be used in speech, but so rarely that it gives some people reason not to take into account such use at all. Such use can be explained both by the influence of Punjabi and by certain dialects of Western Hindi. In the quote that I cited, it is directly indicated that in the Brajbhasha for the dative, the postpositions kuuN and ai ( sg.) / ne ( pl. ) alternate.
On the site quora.com once the question was asked - what are the stereotypes of Bollywood cinema in the image of Pakistanis. One Pakistani, while answering a question, also mentioned the language. In his opinion, the Indians portraying Pakistanis speak too pure Urdu. This kind of Urdu, he remarked, is not often heard in Pakistan these days. The most common type of Pakistani Urdu is Urdu with a Punjabi accent.
As for Indian Urdu, it seems to be used in speech, but so rarely that it gives some people reason not to take into account such use at all. Such use can be explained both by the influence of Punjabi and by certain dialects of Western Hindi. In the quote that I cited, it is directly indicated that in the Brajbhasha for the dative, the postpositions kuuN and ai ( sg.) / ne ( pl. ) alternate.
And more about the Punjabi "ne". Here is what Grierson writes about Bangru. Note that "ne" here expresses both the ergative and the dative case. In my opinion, and in Punjabi, "ne" in "aadmii ne kiitaa" and "ne" in "aadmii ne jaaNaa e" express different cases. In the first - ergative case and in the second - dative, i.e. this is a variant of "nuuN".
