Urdu: Maine

Qureshpor

Senior Member
Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
I shall ignore much of what was said above since I do not have time for long-winded and fruitless arguments. Besides, they’ll only serve to derail this thread! … and we don’t want that!

I think we need to get one or two points cleared up. Firstly, the Urdu of the two recognized dabistaans (Delhi and Lucknow) is essentially the same. There are some differences, e.g. a few noun genders and idioms etc., but the overall grammar is the same. So quoting a second or third rate poet in support of an argument no matter how direct or indirect but essentially faulty, is meaningless. Using such props to imply that the language of one is somehow superior to the other not only confuses the issue at hand but is plainly wrong. In both, this usage is a grammatical blunder!



Yes, the focus of the thread is indeed what you say it is, which brings me to my second point. By saying that Maulavi Sayyed Ahmed’s use of “maiN ne karnaa” type statement is “icing on the cake” one is agreeing to an earlier comment by someone that as a native speaker he knows what he is talking about and therefore his use of this grammatically incorrect form should be trusted over the statement made by a non-native like Schmidt who has written one of the best if not the best modern Urdu grammar and who says this is not standard Delhi Urdu – and, BTW, it isn’t standard Lucknow Urdu either. The latter is hardly surprising since the language moved from one to the other because Delhi Urduphones moved to Lucknow, including, as I’ve said before, my own ancestors. The fact that “a Dihlavii gentleman of some considerable literary merit” uttered such a grammatical monstrosity is just that. One gentleman! It matters little what his literary merits were. What is wrong is wrong and this usage is totally incorrect according to our standard Urdu. There is little known as to what influences this person was under. He certainly wasn't using the standard form. That is for sure.

The bottom line is that sentences like “main ne karnaa” are grammatically incorrect in the standard Urdu of both Delhi and Lucknow and it doesn’t matter who uses it! However, we do note that Urdu spoken by many though not all in Pakistan employs this grammatically incorrect form as the norm. Now whether this is Punjabi influence or not is still open to discussion but one shouldn’t get sensitive about this issue! Your link above once again shows you being hypersensitive about this point. We were merely discussing the possibility in that thread too of such influence. So again I’d urge you to just cool down!

This is highly presumptuous! Once again, there is no evidence for this!

Also, please let us worry whether our lakhanvii Urdu stall gets empty or not! By the sounds of it, Urdu employed by most in Pakistan speaks for itself. That stall may not be empty but whatever is in there certainly does not smell right – full of grammatical monstrosities like maiN ne karnaa and all that arrant nonsense.

Thank you, Faylasoof SaaHib, for the above. No one should be left in any doubt concerning your views on your Urdu and others'. We seem to be not only singing from different hymn sheets but also the language of each sheet is different. Good manners and common decency compels me to terminate this exchange of views at this juncture.
 
  • Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Regarding the question whether it occurs in the speech of Hindi speakers, let me quote several examples from the net: बाबा हम ने खरीदना तो नही था baabaa ham ne khariidnaa to nahii thaa उसने कहा - मैंने नहीं खाना us ne kahaa – mainne nahiiN khaanaa अब निर्णय आपने लेना है कि आप किसका साथ देते हैं ab nirNRay aapne lenaa hai ki aap kiskaa saath dete haiN ऐसा उसने नहीं करना था aisaa usne nahiiN karnaa thaa अगर किसी ने चाय पीनी हो तो स्टेशन के बाहर जाना पड़ता है agar kisii ne chaay piinii ho to sTeshan ke baahar jaanaa paRtaa hai
    marrish SaaHib, blame Tony SaaHib for my re-starting this thread yet again! I have had a quick read of it and would like to ask you a couple of questions.

    1. I know it has been a while but can you shed some light on the authors of these sentences? Where do they originate from, in geographical terms. It would be interesting to delve a little into this.

    2. You quoted Platts entry for "ne". At the time I did not pay too much attention to it. Are you (or anyone else) aware of the "dative use of ne in "Western Hindi"?

    H نے नेne [for orig. le, Ap. Prk. लइए, or लहिए; S. लब्धे], postp. of the agent or active case in High Hindī, and Urdū (orig. a dialec. dat. affix of W. Hindī).
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    ^I don't think I have to blame anyone. I'd rather thank tonyspeed SaaHib for being a catalyst. I can respond to your questions tomorrow, as soon as I get hold of my old notes, so please be patient. Maybe someone can be quicker than me to contribute here?
     

    tonyspeed

    Senior Member
    English & Creole - Jamaica
    It is interesting to note that the Butt paper suggests tha 'ne' is only used to express desire and not necessity. One of the theories is that ne is being inserted to get rid of the overloaded ko "mujhe jana hai" can mean "I want to go" or "I need to go." He claims usage of ne can only mean the former. Would you agree?
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    It is interesting to note that the Butt paper suggests tha 'ne' is only used to express desire and not necessity. One of the theories is that ne is being inserted to get rid of the overloaded ko "mujhe jana hai" can mean "I want to go" or "I need to go." He claims usage of ne can only mean the former. Would you agree?
    Yes, I'd agree to the extent that it expresses intent rather than desire. The element of necessity may be well connected with the situation but the speaker doesn't emphasise it. I can't say anything about the theory of getting rid of mujhe jaanaa hai. I don't think that anyone does it on purpose to get rid of the mentioned construction. By the way, it's Mrs. Butt :)
     

    mastermind1212

    New Member
    India-Hindi
    Can someone explain precisely why in for Urdu speakers who are influenced by Punjabi you get the mujhe/mujhko construction as maine, aapne, tumne, etc.

    As in: Aapne nahin jaana hai?"
    "Nahin, maine nahin jaana."
    The correct words are , Apko nahi jaana hai ?? , nahi , mujhe nahi jaana. There is a difference of words according to their region. But the correct words are correct. Even in English language we see that original spellings of few words are now changed for e.g.

    1) Colour changed to color.

    2) Programme changed to Program.

    so there is not much to worry about. You can either use "Mujhe" or "maine". If you use maine then people would think that you are influenced from Punjabi.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    The correct words are , Apko nahi jaana hai ?? , nahi , mujhe nahi jaana. There is a difference of words according to their region. But the correct words are correct. Even in English language we see that original spellings of few words are now changed for e.g.

    1) Colour changed to color.

    2) Programme changed to Program.

    so there is not much to worry about. You can either use "Mujhe" or "maine". If you use maine then people would think that you are influenced from Punjabi.
    The correct words are:

    aap ko nahiiN jaanaa hai?
    nahiiN, mujhe nahiiN jaanaa. (N is for the nasal n)

    People might not think this when they have read all the posts of this thread.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    ^I don't think I have to blame anyone. I'd rather thank tonyspeed SaaHib for being a catalyst. I can respond to your questions tomorrow, as soon as I get hold of my old notes, so please be patient. Maybe someone can be quicker than me to contribute here?
    I couldn't find my notes but it should be easy to put the sentences I provided in the search machine (in their original script, not the transliteration) as they are faithfully presented in the post. I should have attached links to the sentences, which is a shortcoming on my part. Possibly we can trace the whereabouts of the authors from the sites they published the sentences.

    Originally Posted by marrish
    Regarding the question whether it occurs in the speech of Hindi speakers, let me quote several examples from the net: बाबा हम ने खरीदना तो नही था baabaa ham ne khariidnaa to nahii thaa उसने कहा - मैंने नहीं खाना us ne kahaa – mainne nahiiN khaanaa अब निर्णय आपनेलेना है कि आप किसका साथ देते हैं ab nirNRay aapne lenaa hai ki aap kiskaa saath dete haiN ऐसा उसने नहीं करना था aisaa usne nahiiN karnaa thaa अगर किसी ने चाय पीनी हो तो स्टेशन के बाहर जाना पड़ता है agar kisii ne chaay piinii ho to sTeshan ke baahar jaanaa paRtaa hai
     

    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    I am just back from Punjab, and I invariably heard "maine nahiN karnaa" kind of constructions all throughout (including in the neighbouring regions and in Delhi, which is heavily influenced by everything Punjabi).
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    I'd like to know more about the dative use of ne in Western Urdu-Hindi. It would be very helpful to have a few examples.
    I think what Platts described as W. Hindi are not only Rajasthani dialects/languages but something more. Unfortunately there were no examples available in the dictionary, but we can be sure that the situation used to be so as early as in the 19th century.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I think what Platts described as W. Hindi are not only Rajasthani dialects/languages but something more. Unfortunately there were no examples available in the dictionary, but we can be sure that the situation used to be so as early as in the 19th century.
    Here is an example from Mulla (Asadullah) Wajhi's "Sabras" (1635/1636), an eminent figure in the court of Golconda, in the Deccan. Please do not forget that there was a migration of people to the south from and around the Delhi area as a consequence of invasions.

    jahaaN Ghamzah kare Ghamzah, vahaaN 3aashiq ne kyaa karnaa

    (See page 46-47 of ther attached document for an explanation)

    http://www.mgimo.ru/files/31392/6.pdf

    The author of this document (Alexander Sigordkiy) also connects this usage with Punjabi. As has already been stated in this thread, there is no "ne" usage in obligation type of sentences in Punjabi.

    "First of all, the ne postposition as a subject marker in infinitival modal constructions is obviously an impact of Punjabi (where ne is a subject marker of modal constructions with obligation modality [Zograf 1990: 47]."
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Here is an example from Mulla (Asadullah) Wajhi's "Sabras" (1635/1636), an eminent figure in the court of Golconda, in the Deccan. Please do not forget that there was a migration of people to the south from and around the Delhi area as a consequence of invasions.

    jahaaN Ghamzah kare Ghamzah, vahaaN 3aashiq ne kyaa karnaa

    (See page 46-47 of ther attached document for an explanation)

    http://www.mgimo.ru/files/31392/6.pdf

    The author of this document (Alexander Sigordkiy) also connects this usage with Punjabi. As has already been stated in this thread, there is no "ne" usage in obligation type of sentences in Punjabi.

    "First of all, the ne postposition as a subject marker in infinitival modal constructions is obviously an impact of Punjabi (where ne is a subject marker of modal constructions with obligation modality [Zograf 1990: 47]."
    Most inspiring. We have got another mile stone now. I've read the document you were kind to attach and there is another excerpt which is interesting, especially in the light of Platts' definition of ''ne'':

    p. 38 [...] This feature of Dakkhini is not unique. In modern Hindi the postposition ko (the historical synonym of ne) behaves itself in the same way in participle clauses [...]

    p. 50 Hindi has developed an economic and elegant system of coding the two privileged positions of subject and direct object. Historical synonymy of postpositions ne and ko, still existing in Hariani, Bangaru and some other dialects, is removed.


    In this perspective the reference to Punjabi appears uncalled for and, in the light of this thread, not correct.

    Thank you very much for this finding.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    नवशती हिन्दी व्याकरण navshatii hindii vyaakaraNR (New Century Hindi Grammar) by बदरीनाथ कपूर Badrinath Kapoor, 2006, p. 84 right column second last verse has the following sentence:

    शायद उसने आना हो। shaayad usne aanaa ho. Dr. Badrinath Kapoor is from Benares.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Thank you for this find. After Banaras we need to find an example from Calcutta. This will show that this usage is found in all corners of the compass.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    From a book dealing with the analysis of the Haryanvi language I came to know that in this language the Urdu/Hindi sentence ab hameN jaanaa ho gaa is इब हम नै जाणा होगा ib ham nai jaaNRaa hogaa. I'm pretty sure Haryanvi and KhB have been closely related and influenced one another.

    Another point about Urdu: in a newspaper published from Delhi and Lakhnau I read the following:

    http://www.siyasitaqdeer.com/newspaper-view.php?newsid=2207&date=2014-08-30


    اس موقعے پر وزیرِ اعظم نواز شریف نے کہا کہ اگر میں فوج سے رابطہ نہ بھی کرتا تو فوج نے یہ کردار ادا کرنا تھا کیونکہ دارلحکومت کی حفاظت کی ذمہ داری فوج کی ہے۔
    us mauq3e par waziir-e-a3azam nawaaz shariif ne kahaa kih agar maiN fauj se raabitah nah bhii kartaa to fauj ne yih kirdaar adaa karnaa thaa kyoNkih daarulHukuumat kii Hifaazat kii zimmah daarii fauj kii hai. Literal quotation of Mr. Sharif or their own wording? Any way, the editors didn't seem to have any qualms about this fauj ne karnaa thaa at least.
     
    Last edited:

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    From a book dealing with the analysis of the Haryanvi language I came to know that in this language the Urdu/Hindi sentence ab hameN jaanaa ho gaa is इब हम नै जाणा होगा ib ham nai jaaNRaa hogaa. I'm pretty sure Haryanvi and KhB have been closely related and influenced one another.

    Another point about Urdu: in a newspaper published from Delhi and Lakhnau I read the following:

    http://www.siyasitaqdeer.com/newspaper-view.php?newsid=2207&date=2014-08-30


    اس موقعے پر وزیرِ اعظم نواز شریف نے کہا کہ
    اگر میں فوج سے رابطہ نہ بھی کرتا تو فوج نے یہ کردار ادا کرنا تھا کیونکہ دارلحکومت کی حفاظت کی ذمہ داری فوج کی ہے۔
    us mauq3e par waziir-e-a3azam nawaaz shariif ne kahaa kih agar maiN fauj se raabitah nah bhii kartaa to fauj ne yih kirdaar adaa karnaa thaa kyoNkih daarulHukuumat kii Hifaazat kii zimmah daarii fauj kii hai. Literal quotation of Mr. Sharif or their own wording? Any way, the editors didn't seem to have any qualms about this fauj ne karnaa thaa at least.
    Thank you for this example from Haryanavi. There is certainly a strong possibility that it could have influenced other languages in its vicinity.

    ​Could the paper be quoting the Pakistani prime minister verbatim?
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    It's possible they quoted him verbatim but not nrcessary. I don't know if there is a way to check it. Perhaps reading Pakistani papers from that date could help. It's also possible that he spoke English.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    This time there is even a shi3r to be presented:

    مجروح ہوئے مائل کس آفتِ دوراں پر
    اے حضرتِ من تم نے دل بھی نہ لگا جانا (Majrooh)
    majruuH hu'e maa'il kis aafat-e-dauraaN par
    ae Hazrat-e-man tum ne dil bhii nah lagaa jaanaa

    I found it in the Farhang-e-Asafiyyah under من.ف۔کلمہ .
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    In a book named "Karkhandārī Dialect of Delhi Urdu" published in 1961 in New Delhi, Dr. Gopi Chand Narang described the usage of this construction and I quote:

    "The first person singular agent mæ̃ ne میں نے is also used as singular dative : e.g.

    mæ̃ ne khɑnɑ pəkɑnɑ hæ میں نے کھانا پکانا ہے "

    Gopi Chand Narang, Kark̠h̠andārī Dialect of Delhi Urdu, New Delhi 1961, p. 51.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    In a book named "Karkhandārī Dialect of Delhi Urdu" published in 1961 in New Delhi, Dr. Gopi Chand Narang described the usage of this construction and I quote:

    "The first person singular agent mæ̃ ne میں نے is also used as singular dative : e.g.

    mæ̃ ne khɑnɑ pəkɑnɑ hæ میں نے کھانا پکانا ہے "


    Gopi Chand Narang, Kark̠h̠andārī Dialect of Delhi Urdu, New Delhi 1961, p. 51.
    بہت خوب دریافت کی ہے، آپ نے، مرّش صاحب۔ میرے خیال میں اب کوئی شکّ باقی نہیں رہا کہ میں نےلاہور جانا ہے والا لطیفہ اب اتنا دلکش اور مضحکہ خیز نہیں رہا جتنا کبھی تھا! بہت بہت شکریہ۔​
     
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