Urdu/Persian:برخوردار

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Qureshpor

Senior Member
Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
برخوردار appears to be a derivative of "bar-Khurdan" (fruit-eating). From the infinitive one obtains the past stem (bar-Khurd) to which is added the -aar suffix on the same pattern as "giriftaar", "kirdaar", "Khariidaar" etc

برخوردار in Urdu is a euphemism for "son", "lad" etc. Where does fruit eating come into it?
 
  • Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    برخوردار appears to be a derivative of "bar-Khurdan" (fruit-eating). From the infinitive one obtains the past stem (bar-Khurd) to which is added the -aar suffix on the same pattern as "giriftaar", "kirdaar", "Khariidaar" etc

    برخوردار in Urdu is a euphemism for "son", "lad" etc. Where does fruit eating come into it?
    Sorry QP saHeb, but how is this so? Unless you meant baar xurdan? Anyway, as for برخوردن bar-ḵẖẉurdan, Steingass has: To touch; to knock or dash against.

    My Aryanpour also says some thing like this:

    برخوردن= to come across, bump into, clash, offend.
    برخورد = encounter, conjunction, clash, collision.
    برخوردار = enjoying, succesful, prosperous
    برخوردار شدن = to enjoy, prosper.

    This is what I learnt in my Persian classes many moons ago (!) though if there is more current menaing then I'm sure our Persophone friends here shall enlighten us!

    In Urdu we use it to mean:

    اقبال مند، فیض یاب، کا مگار،بہرہ مند،

    Very much the same as the Persian original.

    But we also use it when addressing juniors, both in speech and writing as a term of endearment!
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Sorry QP saHeb, but how is this so? Unless you meant baar xurdan? Anyway, as for برخوردن bar-ḵẖẉurdan, Steingass has: To touch; to knock or dash against.

    My Aryanpour also says some thing like this:

    برخوردن= to come across, bump into, clash, offend.
    برخورد = encounter, conjunction, clash, collision.
    برخوردار = enjoying, succesful, prosperous
    برخوردار شدن = to enjoy, prosper.

    This is what I learnt in my Persian classes many moons ago (!) though if there is more current menaing then I'm sure our Persophone friends here shall enlighten us!

    In Urdu we use it to mean:

    اقبال مند، فیض یاب، کا مگار،بہرہ مند،

    Very much the same as the Persian original.

    But we also use it when addressing juniors, both in speech and writing as a term of endearment!
    Faylasoof SaaHib. I envy the Persian classes you had since I am a mere "be-ustaadaa" and informing you of anything to do with language matters would be tantamount to "teaching one's grandmother to suck eggs"!:) Please do not think that I am being "age-discriminatory" because I am not aware of your age.

    For everyone else's benefit, the Persian "bar" is a very productive word, or should I say "fruitful". Here is a list from Platts.

    bar= on/upon
    = breast/bosom/chest [cf. bar-aa-bar]. (
    bar-mārnā, bar hāṅknā, v.n.To boast, brag).
    = breadth (of cloth)
    = fruit (
    bar aanaa, (of hope) be fulfilled).
    = the present root of verb "burdan" as in "dil-bar","naamah-bar"

    Yes, "baar" does mean "fruit" but only indirectly, i.e. "baar-i-daraKht" (weight of a tree/fruit). Your first two examples seem to be linked to "breast/bossom/chest" meaning of "bar"
    (Khurdan=zadan) and the other two I think are related to my query of "fruit-eating". Actually when I had checked Platt's entry initially, I missed the son/male offspring connection.

    P بر bar [Zend vara; S. उरः], s.m. Breast, bosom, chest;—(=S. uru or vara), breadth (of cloth);—fruit (=phal):—bar-ḵẖẉur, adj. & s.f.=bar-ḵẖẉurd, and bar-ḵẖẉurdār, q.q.v.:—bar-ḵẖẉurd, s.f. lit. 'Eating or enjoying the fruit'; success, prosperity; enjoyment, happiness, the obtaining one's desires;—bar-ḵẖẉurdār, adj. & s.m. Prosperous, successful, happy, enjoying long life and prosperity; blessed with a family of sons;—male issue, son, child;—bar-ḵẖẉurdārī, s.f. Happiness, &c. (=barḵẖẉurd); numerous issue or offspring:
     
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    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi

    Faylasoof SaaHib. I envy the Persian classes you had since I am a mere "be-ustaadaa" and informing you of anything to do with language matters would be tantamount to "teaching one's grandmother to suck eggs"!:) Please do not think that I am being "age-discriminatory" because I am not aware of your age.

    For everyone else's benefit, the Persian "bar" is a very productive word, or should I say "fruitful". Here is a list from Platts.

    bar= on/upon
    = breast/bosom/chest [cf. bar-aa-bar]. (
    bar-mārnā, bar hāṅknā, v.n.To boast, brag).
    = breadth (of cloth)
    = fruit (
    bar aanaa, (of hope) be fulfilled).
    = the present root of verb "burdan" as in "dil-bar","naamah-bar"

    Yes, "baar" does mean "fruit" but only indirectly, i.e. "baar-i-daraKht" (weight of a tree/fruit).

    ....
    P بر bar [Zend vara; S. उरः], s.m. Breast, bosom, chest;—(=S. uru or vara), breadth (of cloth);—fruit (=phal):—bar-ḵẖẉur, adj. & s.f.=bar-ḵẖẉurd, and bar-ḵẖẉurdār, q.q.v.:—bar-ḵẖẉurd, s.f. lit. 'Eating or enjoying the fruit'; success, prosperity; enjoyment, happiness, the obtaining one's desires;—bar-ḵẖẉurdār, adj. & s.m. Prosperous, successful, happy, enjoying long life and prosperity; blessed with a family of sons;—male issue, son, child;—bar-ḵẖẉurdārī, s.f. Happiness, &c. (=barḵẖẉurd); numerous issue or offspring:
    Alas! I shall remain timeless!

    Then according to you خشكبار xushk baar = dry weight !?
    We use خشك بار /
    خشكبار in Urdu as well, means خشك میوہ = dried fruit.

    Sorry QP saHeb, but how is this so? Unless you meant baar xurdan? Anyway, as for برخوردن bar-ḵẖẉurdan, Steingass has: To touch; to knock or dash against.

    My Aryanpour also says some thing like this:

    برخوردن= to come across, bump into, clash, offend.
    برخورد = encounter, conjunction, clash, collision.
    برخوردار = enjoying, succesful, prosperous
    برخوردار شدن = to enjoy, prosper.
    To be honest I hadn't taken this bar as fruit too seriously (!) and in my definition above of برخوردار I deliberately skipped the full definition:
    برخوردار = enjoying ( the fruit of..), succesful, prosperous ...

    برخوردار appears to be a derivative of "bar-Khurdan" (fruit-eating). From the infinitive one obtains the past stem (bar-Khurd) to which is added the -aar suffix on the same pattern as "giriftaar", "kirdaar", "Khariidaar" etc

    برخوردار in Urdu is a euphemism for "son", "lad" etc. Where does fruit eating come into it?
    No fruit eating as such here! Literally means successful / prosperous (اقبال مند، فیض یاب، etc. in Urdu). It is also a kind of wish and used only when addressing juniors!
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    No fruit eating as such here! Literally means successful / prosperous (اقبال مند، فیض یاب، etc. in Urdu). It is also a kind of wish and used only when addressing juniors!
    —fruit (=phal):—bar-ḵẖẉur, adj. & s.f.=bar-ḵẖẉurd, and bar-ḵẖẉurdār, q.q.v.:—bar-ḵẖẉurd, s.f. lit. 'Eating or enjoying the fruit';
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    —fruit (=phal):—bar-ḵẖẉur, adj. & s.f.=bar-ḵẖẉurd, and bar-ḵẖẉurdār, q.q.v.:—bar-ḵẖẉurd, s.f. lit. 'Eating or enjoying the fruit';
    I think I already answered it!

    .....

    To be honest I hadn't taken this bar as fruit too seriously (!) and in my definition above of برخوردار I deliberately skipped the full definition:
    برخوردار = enjoying ( the fruit of..), successful, prosperous ...

    No fruit eating as such here! Literally means successful / prosperous (اقبال مند، فیض یاب، etc. in Urdu). It is also a kind of wish and used only when addressing juniors!

    Now underlined! … meaning, successful, prosperous (!) = اقبالمند iqbaalmand / فیضاب faiDhyaab

    The only fruits here are symbolic!

    As said earlier, we use barxurdaar to address our juniors only and that too doesn't mean that we are ordering them to eat fruit!

    So if you say:

    barxurdaar yuusuf (Yusuf),
    ka'ii dinoN ba3d tumaaraa xaT milaa
    ....

    This would be translated as:

    Dear Yusuf,

    (wishing you a long, successful life etc.)
    Received your letter after a long while ….


    ... and NOT,

    Fruit-Eating Yusuf!
    Received your letter after a long while ….
    (
    Or even worse: Fruity Yusuf! ...)

    It is a wish implying that they be / are / become successful / have a long life etc. etc. So no fruit eating! Only wishing well!
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I think I already answered it!


    Now underlined! … meaning, successful, prosperous (!) = اقبالمند iqbaalmand / فیضاب faiDhyaab

    The only fruits here are symbolic!

    As said earlier, we use barxurdaar to address our juniors only and that too doesn't mean that we are ordering them to eat fruit!

    So if you say:

    barxurdaar yuusuf (Yusuf),
    ka'ii dinoN ba3d tumaaraa xaT milaa
    ....

    This would be translated as:

    Dear Yusuf,

    (wishing you a long, successful life etc.)
    Received your letter after a long while ….


    ... and NOT,

    Fruit-Eating Yusuf!
    Received your letter after a long while ….
    (
    Or even worse: Fruity Yusuf! ...)

    It is a wish implying that they be / are / become successful / have a long life etc. etc. So no fruit eating! Only wishing well!
    Another one of those threads where our "waves" are "out of phase":(
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi

    Another one of those threads where our "waves" are "out of phase":(
    Really! That is a shame!

    Your question was:


    ....
    برخوردار in Urdu is a euphemism for "son", "lad" etc. Where does fruit eating come into it?
    My answer, yet again!


    I think I already answered it!

    Originally Posted by Faylasoof

    .....

    To be honest I hadn't taken this bar as fruit too seriously (!) and in my definition above of برخوردار I deliberately skipped the full definition:
    برخوردار = enjoying ( the fruit of..), successful, prosperous ...

    No fruit eating as such here! Literally means successful / prosperous (اقبال مند، فیض یاب، etc. in Urdu). It is also a kind of wish and used only when addressing juniors!

    Now underlined! … meaning, successful, prosperous (!) = اقبالمند iqbaalmand / فیضاب faiDhyaab

    The only fruits here are symbolic!

    As said earlier, we use barxurdaar to address our juniors only and that too doesn't mean that we are ordering them to eat fruit!

    So if you say:

    barxurdaar yuusuf (Yusuf),
    ka'ii dinoN ba3d tumaaraa xaT milaa
    ....

    This would be translated as:

    Dear Yusuf,

    (wishing you a long, successful life etc.)
    Received your letter after a long while ….


    ... and NOT,

    Fruit-Eating Yusuf!

    Received your letter after a long while ….
    (
    Or even worse: Fruity Yusuf! ...)

    It is a wish implying that they be / are / become successful / have a long life etc. etc. So no fruit eating! Only wishing well!
    Either your original question (Where does fruit eating come into it?) was wrong or you just decided to change your mind! What you were asking in the first place, i.e. the question itself, appears clear enough so I answered accordingly.

    Please do clarify what you wish to know!
     

    Dib

    Senior Member
    Bengali (India)
    Here are a couple of clear examples of "bar" in the literal meaning of "fruit" of a tree from an interesting early Persian (didactic) poem:
    گنجور » ناصرخسرو » دیوان اشعار » قصاید » قصیدهٔ شمارهٔ ۶

    درخت ترنج از بر و برگ رنگین
    A lime-tree, by its colourful fruits and leaves, ...

    بسوزند چوب درختان بی‌بر
    سزا خود همین است مر بی‌بری را
    They burn the wood of the fruitless trees. This is itself the retribution for fruitlessness.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Thank you Dib SaaHib for the examples. I knew all along that one of the meanings of the word "bar" was fruit but unfortunately I came across a brick wall and the thread crashed!
     

    PersoLatin

    Senior Member
    UK
    Persian - Iran
    درخت ترنج از بر و برگ رنگین
    A lime-tree, by its colourful fruits and leaves, ...

    بسوزند چوب درختان بی‌بر
    سزا خود همین است مر بی‌بری را
    They burn the wood of the fruitless trees. This is itself the retribution for fruitlessness.
    Hi Dib, بر meaning fruit/produce is the short form of بار (that which is borne), as I am sure you know, and I believe it is mainly used in poetry, with that meaning.

    There’s another thread for برخوردار here.
     
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    • Thank you!
    Reactions: Dib

    Dib

    Senior Member
    Bengali (India)
    Hi Dib, بر meaning fruit/produce is the short form of بار (that which is borne), as I am sure you know, and I believe it is mainly used in poetry, with that meaning.
    Thank you, PersoLatin, for pointing this out. Faylasoof did mention بار in the meaning of "fruits", but I somehow didn't connect it to بر.
     
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