Urdu, Persian: Pronunciation of Qaf ق and Ghayn غ

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licinio

Senior Member
Italian
I have noticed that the letter ق seems to have two sounds, one that is like a guttural k, and the other a guttural r, like غ. For instance, آقا does not contain the same sound as قهوه. Is this observation correct? Can you please confirm and possibly give a rule when to use either sound? Thanks.
 
  • arsham

    Senior Member
    Persian
    I have noticed that the letter ق seems to have two sounds, one that is like a guttural k, and the other a guttural r, like غ. For instance, آقا does not contain the same sound as قهوه. Is this observation correct? Can you please confirm and possibly give a rule when to use either sound? Thanks.
    Yes, technically these two letters should be pronounced as a voiced guttural stop ( ق) and a voiced guttural fricative (غ), respectively. This distinction is conserved in some Iranian dialects like Yazdi and a number of Afghan dialects; however, in most Iranian dialects and in the standard version of the language, they have merged into one sound. In other words, they're allophones to each other. Usually if either letter is in the initial position, it's pronounced as a stop, but in median and final positions, especially when intervocalic, it is articulated like a fricative.
     

    licinio

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Usually if either letter is in the initial position, it's pronounced as a stop, but in median and final positions, especially when intervocalic, it is articulated like a fricative.
    Thanks. When you say stop above, it is voiced and as such distinct from a همزة?
     

    licinio

    Senior Member
    Italian
    چی قدر
    Does the qaf in this expression sound like gh?
    It it at the beginning of a word (and so it should sound like q), but it comes to be intervocalic because of the preceding word. It it's so, can we generalise and widen the rule in post no 2 to comprise a change of sound not just with regard to the word, but to the utterance?
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    From most of my Iranian friends I hear it as a fricative (غ)!

    chi ghadr

    A few do say chi qadr.

    When we South Asians speak Farsi we pronounce ق as so, i.e. a guttural k
    = q ; esp. those of us who have had proper Urdu training in uttering a very clear ق sound. In this respect we are like Yazdis and some Afghans!

     
    Hello!

    I'm a student of Arabic trying to learn some Persian as well, but I am a bit confused with these letters, غ and ق. I've tried looking them up, according to some resources they are both pronounced [G], like a voiced Arabic ق or a g far back in the throat, while others seem to pronounce both of them [ɣ], like the Arabic غ, close to the r of Parisian French, and still others vary between them. Is this a regional/dialectal difference? What do you recommend for a learning speaker?

    Thank you for your help!
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Hi!

    I moved your post here as this existing thread discusses just the point you want to know. Here Arsham in his posts above provides good, detailed explanations.

    You can see that, according to him, the distinction between ق and غ sounds is conserved in Yazdi and Afghani Persian (also in Indo-Pak Persian, as I mention) but not elsewhere. Most of my Iranian friends always pronounce ق like غ .

    Edit:

    PG, I guess you already know the answer to this by now. I missed this one!

    How about in the word تبقه. Should the "q" sound like a "gh" here?

    My 4000th post! Exciting!
    So far all the Iranians I've met pronounce تبقه with a غ sound. None I've met so far use the ق sound and btw none are from Yazd.
     
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    Birdcall

    Senior Member
    English - American
    In the Tehrani Persian that I'm familiar with, there was no qa sound. The letter was either pronounced like a voiced qa (as in the first letter of the Farsi word for food, ghazaa I think? This sound does not exist in Urdu) or like an Arabic/Urdu ghayin. But I'm not sure where these allophones occurred; I have forgotten most of the Farsi I used to know.
     
    Thank you faylasoof, I'm sorry I didn't search properly first. But I would also like to ask for a recommendation. Since I learned Arabic first, it feels much more natural for me to pronounce قدیمی as [Gædi:mi:] and قلب as [Gælb] rather than [ɣædi:mi:] and [ɣælb]. But I have no other features of speech from outside Iran, so will it only make me sound strange? If so I can get rid of the [G]:s as I'm trying to do with all other specifically Arabic sounds :)
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Thank you faylasoof, I'm sorry I didn't search properly first. But I would also like to ask for a recommendation. Since I learned Arabic first, it feels much more natural for me to pronounce قدیمی as [Gædi:mi:] and قلب as [Gælb] rather than [ɣædi:mi:] and [ɣælb]. But I have no other features of speech from outside Iran, so will it only make me sound strange? If so I can get rid of the [G]:s as I'm trying to do with all other specifically Arabic sounds :)
    No problem vaftrudner! Just wanted to let you know for the future!

    As for the the "correct" pronunciation of ق in Persian, my own feeling as a non-native speaker is that it really doesn't matter too much. Iranians understand me perfectly though I keep pronouncing ق as we do in both Arabic and proper Urdu, i.e. as a guttural stop! They realise at once that I'm a foreigner and adjust to my speech!

    Just to add this. Apart from my odd, non-Iranian way of pronouncing ق , I mimick the standard Iranian Persian (Tehrani) accent pretty well. This little oddity I personally don't worry about too much and it hasn't given me any problems. Perhaps they think I am from Yazd even though I may not show other Yazdi habits!

     
    This might be a bit off topic, but is the ق in Urdu only used for Arabic and Persian words? The sound doesn't seem to be native in Hindustani. Does anyone know if there was a [q] or [G] sound in pre-Islamic Persian? My (uneducated) guess would be that the modern [G] originates from Arabic [q] but has come to be voiced.
     

    searcher123

    Senior Member
    Farsi/Persian/فارسي
    I have noticed that the letter ق seems to have two sounds, one that is like a guttural k, and the other a guttural r, like غ. For instance, آقا does not contain the same sound as قهوه. Is this observation correct? Can you please confirm and possibly give a rule when to use either sound? Thanks.
    There is not any difference between "ق" and "غ" pronunciation in Persian.
     

    arsham

    Senior Member
    Persian
    This might be a bit off topic, but is the ق in Urdu only used for Arabic and Persian words? The sound doesn't seem to be native in Hindustani. Does anyone know if there was a [q] or [G] sound in pre-Islamic Persian? My (uneducated) guess would be that the modern [G] originates from Arabic [q] but has come to be voiced.
    Middle Persian had a velar fricative in final and median positions. It was developed from the Old Persian g. Most words spelt wit qaf are of Arabic or Turkish origin.
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    This might be a bit off topic, but is the ق in Urdu only used for Arabic and Persian words? The sound doesn't seem to be native in Hindustani. Does anyone know if there was a [q] or [G] sound in pre-Islamic Persian? My (uneducated) guess would be that the modern [G] originates from Arabic [q] but has come to be voiced.
    The ق in Urdu is in words of Arabic and Turkish origins just as Arsham has mentioned it for Persian:
    Middle Persian had a velar fricative in final and median positions. It was developed from the Old Persian g. Most words spelt with qaf are of Arabic or Turkish origin.
    True it is not a native sound but Urdu is very particular about pronouncing it as ق proper even though many, of not most, of the words we have with ق came into Urdu via Persian. However, native Urdu speakers pronounce ق as in Arabic rather than as in Persian!
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I am told that in Modern Persian, Iranians pronounce letters غ and ق (almost) identically. If this is true, would I be right in assuming that the first word in each line of the couplet below would not be differentiated in modern Iranian speech?

    غلغل قمری ار نماند روا ست
    قلقل شیشه شراب بیار

    حافظ
     
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    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    Qureshpor Sahib: I've merged your thread with an older one as we've discussed this before. I'm also including reference to this thread where we discussed the voiced gutteral stop "q" in Panjabi.

    Panjabigator
    (Moderator)
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Qureshpor Sahib: I've merged your thread with an older one as we've discussed this before. I'm also including reference to this thread where we discussed the voiced gutteral stop "q" in Panjabi.

    Panjabigator
    (Moderator)
    navaazish, shukriyah, mihrbaanii Punjabigator Sahib.
     

    Kahaani

    Senior Member
    Hi,

    I often hear a switch in Persian (Tehraani) speech from qaf to Khey/Ghayn (I'm not sure which one it would classify as).

    You can see this in;
    Ishq/Eshq - Ishgh/Eshgh
    Waqt - Waght
    Talaq - Talagh

    I was wondering if this is also present in Urdu? Would it be acceptable to say waght instead of waqt?

    Thank you,
     

    sapnachaandni

    Senior Member
    Persian (فارسی)
    Hi,

    the name of “ق” is “qaaf”.
    the name of “غ” is “ghain” in Urdu and “gheyn” in Persian.
    the name of “ک” is “kaaf”/“key”.

    We don’t pronounce [ɣ] in Persian (Tehraani). We always pronounce [q] for both “ق”(qaaf) and “غ”(Ur: ghain, Per: gheyn).
    In Urdu, “ق” is pronounced [q] and “غ” is pronounced [ɣ].
    “ک” (kaaf/key) is pronounced [k] in both Persian and Urdu.

    In writing “عشق” with Latin letters, “eshq” and “eshgh” both are correct in Persian, but we always pronounce this word as [eʃq] not [eʃɣ], it means we always pronounce “eshq”, but “ق”(qaaf) can be written as “q” and “gh” in Persian (In writing with Latin letters of course).

    In Urdu, the correct pronunciation of “ق”(qaaf) is [q]. It means “عشق” is pronounced [ɪʃq] in Urdu (This word (عشق), can be written as “इश्क” and “इश्क़” in Hindi and it can be pronounced [ɪʃk] and [ɪʃq] both in Hindi).


    Now look at “غم” which has “غ”:
    Persian Pronunciation: [qam]
    Urdu Pronunciation: [ɣəm]


    There is no difference between Pronunciation of “ق” and “غ” in Persian, both are pronounced [q], because of this, “q” and “gh” both can be shown “ق” in writing Persian with Latin letters.

    There is a difference between Pronunciation of “ق” and “غ” in Urdu, “ق” is pronounced [q] and “غ” is pronounced [ɣ], because of this, “q” is shown “ق” and “gh” is shown “غ” in writing Urdu with Latin letters.


    These are right in writing Persian with Latin letters:
    “عشق”: eshq, eshgh
    “وقت”: vaqt (or maybe waqt), vaght/ waght
    “طلاق”: talaaq/talaq, talaagh/talagh

    These are right in writing Urdu with Latin letters:
    “عشق”: ishq
    “وقت”: vaqt/ waqt
    “طلاق”: talaaq/talaq


    “k” can be written instead of “q” in writing Hindi with Latin letters, I don't know whether it can be acceptable in writing Urdu with Latin letters or not
     
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    ihaveacomputer

    Member
    Canadian English
    In some circumstances, I believe the pronunciation [ɢ] may be used, as well. It's just like [q] but it's voiced, just like the contrast between [g]/گ and [k]/ک .
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    From what little I know, there are certain places..I mean juxtaposed with certain consonants where the q has a sound somewhat akin to Ghain but not 3ain Ghain (i.e not exactly Ghain. By the way, in Urdu if some one is 3ain-Ghain, s/he has only one eye!)
     

    eskandar

    Moderator
    English (US)
    sapnachaandni khanum's information is not correct. Tehrani Persian does not have [q] at all, which is a slightly harder sound than how we pronounce qaaf. You can hear a true [q] in careful Urdu speech, in formal Arabic, and in some regional variants of Persian but not in Tehrani Persian.

    Instead of [q] what is present in Tehrani Persian is [ɢ] ~ [ɣ]. [ɢ] is very similar to [q] with the only difference being that it is voiced whereas [q] is unvoiced. You can compare the difference by listening to audio samples on Wikipedia for [q] or [ɢ]. In Tehrani Persian [ɢ] is the default realization (I think this is what sapnachaandni khanum meant by [q] actually) but it is also inaccurate to say that [ɣ] is never heard. Though I wouldn't normally cite Wikipedia, the article on Persian phonology is accurate and well-sourced and explains the issue well:
    In Classical Persian, غ and ق denoted the original Arabic phonemes, the voiced velar fricative [ɣ] and the voiceless uvular stop [q] (pronounced in Persian as voiced uvular stop [ɢ]), respectively. In modern Tehrani Persian (which is used in the Iranian mass media, both colloquial and standard), there is no difference in the pronunciation of غ and ق, and they are both normally pronounced as a voiced uvular stop [ɢ]; however, when they are positioned intervocalically and unstressed, lenition occurs and they tend to be pronounced more like a voiced velar fricative [ɣ]. This allophone is probably influenced by Turkic languages like Azeri and Turkmen. The classic pronunciations of غ and ق are preserved in the eastern variants of Persian (i.e. Dari and Tajiki), as well as in the southern dialects of the modern Iranian variety (e.g. Yazdi and Kermani dialects).
     

    mundiya

    Senior Member
    Hindi, English, Punjabi
    Instead of [q] what is present in Tehrani Persian is [ɢ] ~ [ɣ]. [ɢ] is very similar to [q] with the only difference being that it is voiced whereas [q] is unvoiced. You can compare the difference by listening to audio samples on Wikipedia for [q] or [ɢ].
    Very interesting. They are very similar. I had to listen several times to discern the difference: [q] is slightly closer to [k], while [ɢ] is slightly closer to [g]. Also, [ɢ] is much more similar to [q] than it is to [ɣ]. I can see why Sapna jii considered the Tehrani pronunciation to be [q].
     

    sapnachaandni

    Senior Member
    Persian (فارسی)
    sapnachaandni khanum's information is not correct. Tehrani Persian does not have [q] at all, which is a slightly harder sound than how we pronounce qaaf. You can hear a true [q] in careful Urdu speech, in formal Arabic, and in some regional variants of Persian but not in Tehrani Persian.

    Instead of [q] what is present in Tehrani Persian is [ɢ] ~ [ɣ]. [ɢ] is very similar to [q] with the only difference being that it is voiced whereas [q] is unvoiced. You can compare the difference by listening to audio samples on Wikipedia for [q] or [ɢ]. In Tehrani Persian [ɢ] is the default realization (I think this is what sapnachaandni khanum meant by [q] actually) but it is also inaccurate to say that [ɣ] is never heard. Though I wouldn't normally cite Wikipedia, the article on Persian phonology is accurate and well-sourced and explains the issue well:
    Aaqaaye eskandar, The information on Wikipedia is not correct. Please check these books which are about Persian phonetics:
    (The information on these books is based on Tehrani Persian.)

    "تاریخ زبان فارسی" (جلد اول)، از پرویز ناتل خانلری، فرهنگ نشر نو ---> ص 53
    "مبانی زبان شناسی و کاربرد آن در زبان فارسی" از ابوالحسن نجفی، انتشارات نیلوفر ---> ص 56
    "آواشناسی زبان فارسی، آواها و ساخت آوایی هجا"(ویرایش دوم)، از یدالله ثمره، مرکز نشر دانشگاهی ---> ص 48-49 و 80




    Edit: In Tehrani Persian, /q/ is voiced, but we don't pronounce [ɣ]. /q/ can be devoiced, For example, /q/ is devoiced at the end of the word, but it is not like that audio sample of [q] which is on Wikipedia. By the way, the audio sample of [ɢ] on Wikipedia is not the exact pronunciation of "ق، غ" in Tehrani Persian.
    In all Persian phonetics books, <q> is used for representing the pronunciation of "ق، غ", and it has been mentioned that /q/ is voiced in Tehrani Persian.
     
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    sapnachaandni

    Senior Member
    Persian (فارسی)
    Very interesting. They are very similar. I had to listen several times to discern the difference: [q] is slightly closer to [k], while [ɢ] is slightly closer to [g]. Also, [ɢ] is much more similar to [q] than it is to [ɣ]. I can see why Sapna jii considered the Tehrani pronunciation to be [q].
    What I said is based on phonetics books.
    By the way, I don't pronounce [ɣ] in Persian.
     

    eskandar

    Moderator
    English (US)
    Aaqaaye eskandar, The information on Wikipedia is not correct. Please check these books which are about Persian phonetics:
    (The information on these books is based on Tehrani Persian.)

    "تاریخ زبان فارسی" (جلد اول)، از پرویز ناتل خانلری، فرهنگ نشر نو ---> ص 53
    "مبانی زبان شناسی و کاربرد آن در زبان فارسی" از ابوالحسن نجفی، انتشارات نیلوفر ---> ص 56
    "آواشناسی زبان فارسی، آواها و ساخت آوایی هجا"(ویرایش دوم)، از یدالله ثمره، مرکز نشر دانشگاهی ---> ص 48-49 و 80




    Edit: In Tehrani Persian, /q/ is Voiced, but we don't pronounce [ɣ]. /q/ can be devoiced, For example, /q/ is devoiced at the end of the word, but it is not like that audio sample of [q] which is on Wikipedia. By the way, the audio sample of [ɢ] on Wikipedia is not the exact pronunciation of "ق، غ" in Tehrani Persian.
    I don't have access to those books right now but I suggest the following sources which attest to what I posted above:

    International Phonetic Association (1999). Handbook of the International Phonetic Association: A guide to the use of the International Phonetic Alphabet. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 124–125.
    Jahani, Carina (2005). "The Glottal Plosive: A Phoneme in Spoken Modern Persian or Not?". In Éva Ágnes Csató, Bo Isaksson, and Carina Jahani. Linguistic Convergence and Areal Diffusion: Case studies from Iranian, Semitic and Turkic. London: RoutledgeCurzon. pp. 79–96.
    Thackston, W. M. (1993-05-01). "The Phonology of Persian". An Introduction to Persian (3rd Rev ed.). Ibex Publishers. p. xvii.

    What I said is based on phonetics books.
    By the way, I don't pronounce [ɣ] in Persian.
    So is what I said. And since you are a sample size of one, your personal idiolect is statistically irrelevant. ;) Perhaps some people may not pronounce [ɣ] (or maybe you just don't realize that you do it), but others certainly do. Just for example, you can clearly hear [ɣ] and not [ɢ] or [q] in plenty of recordings from various Persian speakers on Forvo.com - cf. چراغ زرد and حاج آقا and many more.
     

    sapnachaandni

    Senior Member
    Persian (فارسی)
    So is what I said. And since you are a sample size of one, your personal idiolect is statistically irrelevant. ;) Perhaps some people may not pronounce [ɣ] (or maybe you just don't realize that you do it), but others certainly do. Just for example, you can clearly hear [ɣ] and not [ɢ] or [q] in plenty of recordings from various Persian speakers on Forvo.com - cf. چراغ زرد and حاج آقا and many more.
    I didn't say [ɣ] is not pronounced in Persian. I said [ɣ] is not pronounced in Tehrani Persian. It is not my idea and it is not about my personal idiolect. It's the information which has been written in phonetics books.
     
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    mundiya

    Senior Member
    Hindi, English, Punjabi
    Sapna jii, if you know of any online audio samples of the correct Tehrani pronunciation, could you post them here? I would like to listen. Do you feel the Tehrani Persian [q] is just like the (proper) Urdu [q]?
     

    sapnachaandni

    Senior Member
    Persian (فارسی)
    Sapna jii, if you know of any online audio samples of the correct Tehrani pronunciation, could you post them here? I would like to listen.
    Mundiya jii, I don’t have sample, I should search.

    Do you feel the Tehrani Persian [q] is just like the (proper) Urdu [q]?
    They are sometimes very similar (maybe just like each other), sometimes totally different, because /q/ has allophones in Persian.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    For me it is different. By the way, I'm wondering why this thread is titled "Urdu". It's all about Persian, sholdnt it be Persian (and Urdu)?
     

    eskandar

    Moderator
    English (US)
    I didn't say [ɣ] is not pronounced in Persian. I said [ɣ] is not pronounced in Tehrani Persian. It is not my idea and it is not about my personal idiolect. It's the information which has been written in phonetics books.
    If it's not about your personal idiolect then why did you bother to say "I don't pronounce [ɣ] in Persian" (emphasis added)? What I am arguing is also backed up by the phonetics books I cited. More to the point, there is a plethora of evidence that contradicts your point. If you don't like the Forvo.com links I provided, you can refer to Youtube as well. You can hear [ɣ] in this BBC Persian report (/watch?v=HPg_MhNaU2s) at 0:04-0:06 (دقایق) and pretty consistently throughout this song by the formerly Tehran-based band Kiosk (/watch?v=6al6Z6hF48E), for example at 0:40-0:48 (قدرت and عشق), at 1:20 (قرمه سبزی), and so on. (Append youtube.com to the beginning of those URLs to access them). This is clear evidence that contradicts your claim that [ɣ] is not pronounced in Tehrani Persian. Meanwhile, I challenge you to find one audio recording of someone pronouncing [q] (not [ɢ]) in Tehrani Persian.

    marrish SaaHib, I agree on both counts (that Persian and Urdu pronunciation of qaaf are quite distinct, and that the thread title should be changed to "Persian and Urdu"!)
     

    Treaty

    Senior Member
    Persian
    There is no difference between the pronunciation s of غ and ق in most of Iranian genuine Persian accents (by genuine, I mean the accents of first-language speakers of Persian). In genuine Tehrani accent, they are both pronounced close to [ɢ] in my opinion. By the way, I'm not also a Tehrani speaker. My dialect has both [q] and [ɣ] that, as I perceive, are both different to what is pronounced by local Tehrani speakers.

    If you don't like the Forvo.com links I provided, you can refer to Youtube as well. You can hear [ɣ] in this BBC Persian report (/watch?v=HPg_MhNaU2s) at 0:04-0:06 (دقایق) and pretty consistently throughout this song by the formerly Tehran-based band Kiosk (/watch?v=6al6Z6hF48E), for example at 0:40-0:48 (قدرت and عشق), at 1:20 (قرمه سبزی), and so on.
    I consider your examples more like [ɢ] than [ɣ].
     
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    sapnachaandni

    Senior Member
    Persian (فارسی)
    If it's not about your personal idiolect then why did you bother to say "I don't pronounce [ɣ] in Persian" (emphasis added)? What I am arguing is also backed up by the phonetics books I cited. More to the point, there is a plethora of evidence that contradicts your point. If you don't like the Forvo.com links I provided, you can refer to Youtube as well. You can hear [ɣ] in this BBC Persian report (/watch?v=HPg_MhNaU2s) at 0:04-0:06 (دقایق) and pretty consistently throughout this song by the formerly Tehran-based band Kiosk (/watch?v=6al6Z6hF48E), for example at 0:40-0:48 (قدرت and عشق), at 1:20 (قرمه سبزی), and so on. (Append youtube.com to the beginning of those URLs to access them). This is clear evidence that contradicts your claim that [ɣ] is not pronounced in Tehrani Persian. Meanwhile, I challenge you to find one audio recording of someone pronouncing [q] (not [ɢ]) in Tehrani Persian.

    marrish SaaHib, I agree on both counts (that Persian and Urdu pronunciation of qaaf are quite distinct, and that the thread title should be changed to "Persian and Urdu"!)
    In Persian [ɣ] is pronounced and [ʁ] can be pronounced too.
    I told before, In all Persian phonetics books (actually I should say in many of them), <q> is used for showing the pronunciation of "ق، غ", and it has been mentioned that /q/ is voiced in Tehrani Persian.
    In Persian, /q/ is Voiced dorso-uvular (uvular) stop and it has allophones (then /q/ is sometimes like IPA [ɢ]). Apologise, I wrote [q] and [eʃq] instead of /eʃq/ and /q/ by mistake, because In phonetics books, <q> is used for showing the pronunciation of Persian "ق، غ".

    In Tehrani Persain "ق، غ" can be pronounced as a Voiced uvular stop and/or Voiced uvular fricative consonant.* (and it has allophones)


    *Samareh, Yadollah (1999/1378): Aavaashenaasi-ye zabaan-e faarsi: aavaahaa va saaxt-e aavaa’i-ye hejaa (Phonetics of Persian Language: Phones and Phonetics Structure of Syllable). Tehran: Markaz-e Nashr-e Daaneshgaahi. p. 62.


    According to phonetics books, [ʁ] is pronounced in Tehrani Persian not [ɣ].
     
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    eskandar

    Moderator
    English (US)
    According to phonetics books, [ʁ] is pronounced in Tehrani Persian not [ɣ].
    Well, now this is something different than your earlier claim. Had you worded it this way I might not have bothered to argue; similarly had you been clear that by [q] you actually meant IPA [ɢ] I would have had no disagreement. My point was really that the phoneme in question is often realized as a fricative in intervocalic conditions and is not always a stop. But I'll concede that the fricative may be uvular and not velar as I had claimed. And, for whatever it's worth, while I am not a native speaker of Persian, I learned the language from my family who are native Tehranis (not immigrants from another part of Iran) and native speakers of the Tehrani dialect.
     

    sapnachaandni

    Senior Member
    Persian (فارسی)
    Well, now this is something different than your earlier claim. Had you worded it this way I might not have bothered to argue; similarly had you been clear that by [q] you actually meant IPA [ɢ] I would have had no disagreement.
    I wrote what has been written in phonetics books.

    My point was really that the phoneme in question is often realized as a fricative in intervocalic conditions and is not always a stop. But I'll concede that the fricative may be uvular and not velar as I had claimed.
    Right, according to phonetics books, it sometimes can be pronounced as a voiced uvular fricative in intervocalic conditions. And I told before, it has allophones in Tehrani Persian.
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ Lady and Getleman, if a consensus has been reached between the two of you, is it possible to have a conclusion in lay person's language which all mortals can understand? It would be even more helpful if any sound files could be attached which contrast the real Arabic qaaf and Ghain with the Tehrani qaaf and Ghain. For example how would a Tehrani Persian speaker pronounce the following words:

    qariib (near) /Ghariib (stranger)

    Do the q/Gh sounds change depending on the their position in a word (intial, medial or final) and/or do they change depending on the proceding/following vowel or consonant?

    Thanking both of you in advance for your kind assistence.

    PS. eskandar SaaHib, one positive thing that has already come out of this discussion is some personal information about you!:)
     

    sapnachaandni

    Senior Member
    Persian (فارسی)
    ^ There is no difference between pronouncing "قریب"(qariib) and "غریب"(Ghariib) in Tehrani Persian. They can be pronounced [ɢaɾiːb]*.

    * "zabar" (ــــــَـــ) is pronounced as an open front unrounded vowel ([a]) in Tehrani Persian and most of Iranian Persian accents, It means it is not a near-open front unrounded vowel ([æ]).
    In Tehrani Persian, "re"(ر) is pronounced as an alveolar flap consonant ([ɾ]) in intervocalic conditions. [ɾ] is one of the allophones of "re"(ر) in Tehrani Persian.
     
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    sapnachaandni

    Senior Member
    Persian (فارسی)
    Do the q/Gh sounds change depending on the their position in a word (intial, medial or final) and/or do they change depending on the proceding/following vowel or consonant?
    Yes, it has allophones*:
    It becomes semi-devoiced in the beginning of the word (after silence), like "قند" /qand/. It also becomes semi-devoiced in adjacent voiced consonants, like "نقض", "نغز" /naqz/.
    It becomes devoiced at the end of the word, like "مرغ" /morq/. It also becomes devoiced in adjacent voiceless consonants, like "نقطه" /noqte/.

    And, it sometimes can be pronounced as a voiced uvular fricative in intervocalic conditions in Tehrani Persian, for example, "آقا"/aaqaa/ can be pronounced as both [ʔɑɢɑ] and [ʔɑʁɑ]**.


    *Samareh, Yadollah (1999/1378): Aavaashenaasi-ye zabaan-e faarsi: aavaahaa va saaxt-e aavaa’i-ye hejaa (Phonetics of Persian Language: Phones and Phonetics Structure of Syllable). Tehran: Markaz-e Nashr-e Daaneshgaahi. p. 49.

    **Samareh, Yadollah (1999/1378): Aavaashenaasi-ye zabaan-e faarsi: aavaahaa va saaxt-e aavaa’i-ye hejaa (Phonetics of Persian Language: Phones and Phonetics Structure of Syllable). Tehran: Markaz-e Nashr-e Daaneshgaahi. p. 62.
     
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    sapnachaandni

    Senior Member
    Persian (فارسی)
    It does sound like it to my ears.
    Thank you marrish jii, "ق،غ" can be pronounced like it in Tehrani Persian, because of this I told Persian "ق،غ" and Urdu "ق" are sometimes very similar, and sometimes totally different, because "ق،غ" has allophones in Persian and "ق،غ" can be pronounced as a voiced uvular fricative (as I said above).
     
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