Urdu: Saalan

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lcfatima

Senior Member
English USA
Can someone explain about this word? It is the liquid gravy part of a dish, the "curry" if you will. Where does this word come from? I have noticed that Hindi speakers don't always understand this word, but both Indian and Pakistani Urdu speakers will understand. What is the Hindi equivalent of this culinary term?

In some dialects of Gulf Arabic, a meat and gravy dish is also called a salona instead of marq/marg. I am pretty sure this is the same word, but I wasn't sure of which direction this word has travelled. Any Farsi connection here?
 
  • BP.

    Senior Member
    Urdu
    Your observation that Hindi speakers don't understand the word for the sauce or broth that accompanies meat in subcontinental cuisine, is news to me. I thought it was very commonplace since some people from India called meals saalan.

    Let's wait for input on its etymology. But my guess would be that it could've travelled either way. Gulf states have historical had had interaction with some of our regions.
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    I thought <saalan سالن > was a real, bona fide Hindi word. If I’m not mistaken, it has a Sanskrit origin whose derivative was something like <sālnā>.

    Let’s wait for Illumin or PG to tell us its Sanskrit / Prakrit origin.

    In Farsi سالن = sheereh-e-goosht , شیرہء گوشت while aabgoosht آبگوشت is more like broth.

    …and as Icf says the real Arabic word for سالن is <maraq مَرَق (and maraqah مَرَقَہ)>, from the verb maraqa مَرَقَ - one of its meaning is <to fill the pot with gravy>.
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    ICF, I have been meaning to ask the same question for some time now. I didn't know this word till I officially studied Urdu. Not once have I heard it in my house too. The word we use for "gravy" is <tarī>, which is also an Urdu word.

    Lot's of meat dishes such as haleem, nihari, etc. are lost upon me because we NEVER eat them, so I interpret sālan as falling in a similar category.

    Faylasoof, doesn't <shīr> imply <mīṭhāpan> as well?
     

    lcfatima

    Senior Member
    English USA
    Well, perhaps I am wrong, but in my experience "saalan" seems like a Muslim desi word because not everyone else understands it. Some people know "mirch ka saalan," the Hyderabaadi dish, because it appears on many "Punjabi Hotel" type restaurant menus (at least in Dubai). But they do not use the word saalan as Urdu speakers/Urdu speaking Muslims use it.

    So would tarii be the term Hindi speakers prefer for the gravy?

    PG: Yes these are very Muslim dishes, but my mother-in-law told me that in Lucknow some Hindus make chicken and mutton versions of these dishes, perhaps just because they are so famous. In Pakistan because meat is so expensive and also educated people are more health conscious, you will also find people making chicken versions at home. I know Iranians as well as Gulf Arabs have a similar dish to haleem/hareesa. I suspect that dish is originally from Iran and has travelled to both the Gulf (harees) where it is very bland, and also to South Asia in North India/Pakistan and Hyderabad Dakkan, where it is heavily spiced. Interestingly, haleem/hareesa (which are similar dishes) is associated with Lahore/Punjabis, and nehari is associated with Urdu speakers from U.P., though in my experience both dishes are eaten by both communities.
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    ICF, I was weary to label it a Muslim desi word just because of my Lucknow experience! I knew plenty of Hindu Urdu speakers who referred to <tarī> as <sālan>.
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    PG

    Actually, <shīr> in Farsi is milk. In Urdu also we use it, either in poetry with or in an everyday expressions like <shīr xār bachchah = doodh piine waalaa bachchcah>.

    The word <shīrī.n = shīrīn> = <mīṭhās> = sweet – also a proper name for girls. … and <tarī تری > is, as you say, Urdu - means <sogginess> = <namī نمی / ruToobat رطُوبت>. It is interesting you use it for <sālan>. Makes perfect sense.

    I asked my Iranian friends about <sālan>. They have never heard this word. In Farsi it is apparently <aab-e-goosht> [not <aabgoosht> = broth]. They also hadn't heard of sheereh-e-goosht , شیرہء گوشت , but my Farsi dictionary has it under <gravy>!!
     

    Illuminatus

    Senior Member
    India, Hindi, English, Marathi
    If you mean the broth that accompanies Indian curries, these are the words:

    At home (among Maharashtrians), we use Rassa (similar to Ras = Juice)
    In Rajasthan and other North Indian states, we use Jhol
    Shorba
    is also used sometimes, but it is less common.
     

    BP.

    Senior Member
    Urdu
    I think saalan or shorba are usually but not only associated with meat dishes. chholay, aloo, ratatouille etc could all have saalan in them if you don't cook them dry.
     
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    Illuminatus

    Senior Member
    India, Hindi, English, Marathi
    Yeah, yeah they have nothing to do with meat.

    We have aloo rassa (curried potatoes with the jhol or whatever you want to call it).

    Often, while the person who is serving is requested to serve more Rassa/Jhol
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Oh yes! Meat is not necessary to have <saalan / shorbaa >. The latter originally from Farsi: شوربا


    For us, only <yakhnii> requires meat as usually that is what we call meat broth = soup made with some meat, + / - bone.

    So we still do not have the etymology of <saalan سالن >.



    ... and is <rassa> also used for other things, like fruits?

    In Urdu we use both <ras رس> and <3araq عرق> for fruit juice, e.g. mango juice = aam kaa ras / 3araq

    Other words are: < عصارَہ and شيرَہ > -depending on the preparation.
     

    BP.

    Senior Member
    Urdu
    I wasn't, and if I didn't know its culinary context I'd have thought you were talking about the same thing as nami (or seelan as well?), which means humidity.
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    I wasn't, and if I didn't know its culinary context I'd have thought you were talking about the same thing as nami (or seelan as well?), which means humidity.
    I just learned something new! I consulted my Panjabi dictionary, and it suggested <namī> before "gravy," so perhaps this is a more common usage.

    Now that you mention it, we do say <tarā tar> for soaking wet.
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    So is anyone familiar with the word <tarī> or is this a Panjabicism?
    Yes! As I say above in post #8, but different usage in Urdu:

    The word <shīrī.n = shīrīn> = <mīṭhās> = sweet – also a proper name for girls. … and <tarī تری > is, as you say, Urdu - means <sogginess> = <namī نمی / ruToobat رطُوبت>. It is interesting you use it for <sālan>. Makes perfect sense.
    So, in Punjabi both <tarī تری > and <namī نمی > are used for gravy. In Urdu they are reserved for <<wetness / sogginess>>. More or less the same for <ruToobat رطُوبت> = dampness / humidity. Comes from the Arabic < رطُب > , while <tarī تری > is from Farsi. I would assume <ruToobat رطُوبت> is not used in Punjabi.
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    I was unclear earlier; I've never heard <nāmī> used for anything but "wetness" or "sogginess."

    Interesting words. رطُوبت may have a stronger hold in Pakistani Panjabi, but I can't say for certain. Culinary nomenclature tends to break linguistic boundaries, but I do not know about this word.
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Oh! So I misunderstood! Then the usage is the same for Urdu and Punjabi. ... and just to clarify further, <nāmī نمی / ruToobat رطُوبت > etc. usage in Urdu is strictly limited to non-culinary situations, e.g. climatic humidity, a humid / damp room etc.
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    The liquid portion of a hot curry can make your eyes watery so there is a link, though I agree we are starting to go off track

    Edit! Edit!

    Ladies and Gentlemen,

    Perhaps our wait is over!


    As I say in post above # 3 , <sālan> is a Hindi word and there is a link between this and <sālnā>.
    Here is what I found.



    <sālnā>. is also a verb with a Sanskrit origin and means – to penetrate / perforate etc.
     
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    player3

    New Member
    India english hindi urdu
    'Saalan', 'shirva','shorba',these are all common words for 'gravy' in india in muslim family or muslim influenced places,while tari or rassa are the more common words for the non muslims.
    And in lucknow the culture is affected by muslims so the guys do understand better urdu than any other part.and non-veg is prime cuisine of lucknow,the world famous tunde kababi,nahri kulcha of rahim,waheed biryani resides there
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    I understand what you are trying to say about Luckhnow’s Muslim culture but the point I was driving at was that the etymology of <sālan> seems to be ultimately from <sālnā>, a Sanskrit word and <sālan> itself is of old Hindi / Prakrit origin. Hence my surprise to learn that its use seems less common than it is in India.
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    I understand what you are trying to say about Luckhnow’s Muslim culture but the point I was driving at was that the etymology of <sālan> seems to be ultimately from <sālnā>, a Sanskrit word and <sālan> itself is of old Hindi / Prakrit origin. Hence my surprise to learn that its use seems less common than it is in India.
    For some reason, it seems to be tied to Subcontinental Muslim cuisine only. It's a great word but I not many people I can use it with.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    A very good thread with a lot of divergence in the perception of what the world "saalan" implies to the posters. I too am surprised to hear that the word appears to be associaed with Muslim cuisine bearing in mind that it is an Indic word through and through. Perhaps one could draw the analogy of the word "khaanaa" vs "bhojan", both Indic words but the former is associated with Muslims and the latter with non-Muslims, especially Hindus.

    From my Punjabi perspective, saalan (saalaNR) is always a curry made from meat, vegetables or a mixture of both. So we can have gosht saalan, aaluu saalan and gost and aaluu saalan. The liquid part in Punjabi was always "shoraa", the Urdu shorbaa. We never used "tarii" for this. Interestingly "tarii" for us is the thin oily layer. Some people prefer to take as much of this layer off as possible to reduce it "sticking" in the throat.

    We also called saalaNR "saluuNRaa". This brings me to the Urdu word "salonaa". Ultimately, I think the words "saalan" could be connected with "salonaa" which is linked to salt. You have no doubt heard of the phrase "saaNvlii salonii maHbuubah".

    So in summary, I belief a "saalan" in theory is anything "savoury" as opposed to a sweet dish. English word "saline" seems to be linked to it.
     
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    Wolverine9

    Senior Member
    American English
    A very good thread with a lot of divergence in the perception of what the world "saalan" implies to the posters. I too am surprised to hear that the word appears to be associaed with Muslim cuisine bearing in mind that it is an Indic word through and through. Perhaps one could draw the analogy of the word "khaanaa" vs "bhojan", both Indic words but the former is associated with Muslims and the latter with non-Muslims, especially Hindus.
    Isn't khaanaa equally associated with Hindus and Muslims (at least those from Hindi and Urdu speaking areas)? It seems to be very common throughout.

    We also called saalaNR "saluuNRaa". This brings me to the Urdu word "salonaa". Ultimately, I think the words "saalan" could be connected with "salonaa" which is linked to salt. You have no doubt heard of the phrase "saaNvlii salonii maHbuubah".

    So in summary, I belief a "saalan" in theory is anything "savoury" as opposed to a sweet dish. English word "saline" seems to be linked to it.
    Turner provides a different etymology for saalan and salonaa, so they are not connected. What's interesting is that saalan doesn't seem to have any other Indic cognates. Neither word is related to English saline, which is from Latin.

    saṁlēpana 13010 *saṁlēpana ʻ smearing together ʼ. [Cf. saṁlēpa -- m. ʻ mud ʼ Hcat. -- √lip]
    H. sālan, sālnā m. ʻ curry of meat or fish or vegetables ʼ (or poss. < *saṁlāpana -- , cf. *ālāpana -- 2).

    salavaṇa 13286 salavaṇa ʻ having salt ʼ VarBr̥S. [sa -- 2, lavaṇá -- ]
    Pk. salōṇa -- , salūṇa -- ʻ salted ʼ; S. salū̃ṇo ʻ seasoned with salt ʼ, L. salūṇā, P. saloṇā, salūṇā, sanūṇā, ludh. sanūnā; OAw. salonā ʻ charming ʼ; H. salonā ʻ salty, tasty, intelligent ʼ; OG. salūṇa ʻ excellent, beautiful ʼ, G. saluṇũ ʻ sweet, dainty, very good ʼ.
    Addenda: salavaṇa -- : WPah.kṭg. səluṇɔ ʻ mixed with salt ʼ, m. ʻ seasoned vegetables ʼ ( -- l -- , as in all languages with -- <-> < -- l -- , due to simple lv̄ṇ < lavaṇá).
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Isn't khaanaa equally associated with Hindus and Muslims (at least those from Hindi and Urdu speaking areas)? It seems to be very common throughout.

    Turner provides a different etymology for saalan and salonaa, so they are not connected. What's interesting is that saalan doesn't seem to have any other Indic cognates. Neither word is related to English saline, which is from Latin.
    I believe it was given as an example, analogical with *wrong* associating "bhojan" with Hindus and as if "khaana" were to be associated with Muslims, which is not the case. At least I want to understand it so.

    These words, khaanaa, bhojan, sabzii, saalan, tarkaarii etc. are not bound by sectarian divisions.

    Thank you for Turner's reference. saalan does have at least one Indic cognate, i.e. saalaNR in Punjabi. Etymologically salonaa and saline are not related but both of them do mean have the same underlying meaning.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    khaanaa vs bhojan. I believe I got this impression from the pages of this forum. See 3rd paragraph of # post 16.

    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1039180&highlight=bhojan
    I can agree to the extent of bhojan being spoken exclusively by some Hindu families but the rest of argumentation and reasoning in that post is totally out of the blue. This opinion is my personal one, based on culinary interactions with different ethnic and religious groups.
     
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    nikmahesh

    Member
    English, Hindi, Marwari (basic)
    I belive it's saalaNR in Marwari as well, although we tend use jhol more often. However jhol is more associated with vegetarian dishes I believe, while saalan can have meat sometimes... I think the word does tend to be associated with muslims though- perhaps in the context of meat? That doesn't mean it's not indic-derived!

    Regarding bhojan, for me personally it's quite an old, traditional phrase- at least I think so because the only people I've come across who've used it were my grandparents. Khaanaa is more... regular and without connotation.
     
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    littlepond

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    I can agree to the extent of bhojan being spoken exclusively by some Hindu families ...
    Really? "bhojan" is a very common word used by most Indian families (most Indians are Hindus, so if you were implying that, then it's a different thing). "Bhojan" is simply higher register than mere "khaanaa", that's all to it. I wonder how did you come upon your conclusions about "bhojan". An even higher-register word would be "aahaar" - which again has nothing to do with religion.

    Neither is "khaanaa" associated with Muslims!
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Really? "bhojan" is a very common word used by most Indian families (most Indians are Hindus, so if you were implying that, then it's a different thing). "Bhojan" is simply higher register than mere "khaanaa", that's all to it. I wonder how did you come upon your conclusions about "bhojan". An even higher-register word would be "aahaar" - which again has nothing to do with religion.

    Neither is "khaanaa" associated with Muslims!
    In post #30 I said "...with *wrong* associating "bhojan" with Hindus" and it is in response to post 28 first para, last sentence. What I said later and you are referring to, is said in the context of the linked thread - that is, some Hindu families use the word 'bhojan" only and they don't use khaanaa. I'm trying to say: neither khaanaa nor bhojan has to do anything with religion - Jains, Muslims, Hindus, Christians and others use them and whether some Hindus prefer one to another - often depending on situation I surmise - doesn't change this fact.
     

    littlepond

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    ^ In that case, I misunderstood you: apologies! I agree with you by and large, with the reservation that most Muslims prefer to use words derived from Persian/Arabic as far as possible, so they may be reluctant to use "bhojan" or "aahaar".
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    ^ In that case, I misunderstood you: apologies! I agree with you by and large, with the reservation that most Muslims prefer to use words derived from Persian/Arabic as far as possible, so they may be reluctant to use "bhojan" or "aahaar".
    It's OK! Your reservation however calls for a counter-view at the very least and I will try to put back this discussion onto its right track, keeping in mind that the topic at hand is not about bhojan v. khaanaa but about saalan:)

    Most Muslims (or any other faith community for that matter) would not be aware of origins of any particular word. People use certain words because they are the ones they have grown up with. Besides, "khaanaa" is neither Persian nor Arabic and this is the word one finds to be most common, be it Hindi or Urdu, regardless of creed and caste. That is why your view about the purported preference of most Muslims (I surmise we don't explore further than the region of the Subcontinent) for loan-words of Persian or Arabic provenience is inaccurate. As bhojan or aahaar is a normal part of Hindi, those mother-tongue Hindi speakers who happen to be Muslims won't think a moment before using these words if the context requires (side note: shaakaahaarii is by and large a universally known word in India, isn't it?), I won't mention Marathi or Bengali... It is therefore wrong to emphasise religion-based linguistic preferences impromptu, especially when the context does not call for it. All I did was setting the record right after post 28 first para, last sentence and when you agree than I am glad about it; I have noticed also that you said "khaanaa" was not associated with Muslims but it seems there are people who do associate it with Muslims (hogwash) and they are people who think Muslims don't speak Hindi and are reluctant to use Hindi words. Far from it! You mentioned in one thread "bhratashri" - that no-one would speak like that but it was ma3suum rizaa raahii (Rahi Masoom Raza) who wrote all the dialogues for Mahabharat and mirrored the Urdu conversional etiquette and coined for the Hindi language "pitaashrii" etc. which everyone knows today, on the pattern of "abbaa jaan"... and not the least, the first known record of "bhojan" in Urdu dates back to 1657 (a narrative in verse by Mulla Nusrati).

    With the hope of having said something interesting I will leave it aside and proceed to "SAALAN". I was able to find this word in Marathi as well. There are many articles on the net about Hyderabadi dish (i.a.) "mirchii saalan" and I read yesterday that someone wrote that even if someone were to have a preference to call a gravy dish "sabzii" or "tarkaarii", they would still call "mirchiisaalan" a "saalan".

    saalan doesn't equate to khaanaa or bhojan or aahaar because the former is specific and the latter ones are general. Since this thread is about Urdu, one equivalent of saalan is naan-xorish but Muslims, even those who speak Urdu, don't use the latter at all and I would be surprised to hear anyone of tens of millions say it (I heard it twice in my life) so they massally go for an Indic word at the loss of a Persian one. Plus you can't say saalan karnaa nor khaanaa karnaa but you can bhojan karnaa and aahaar karnaa. On the other hand, you can say saalan khaanaa and khaanaa khaanaa but not bhojan khaanaa or aahaar khaanaa.

    سالن میں ایسے مصالحے بس نہ ہی ہوں کہ سالن نوش فرماتے ہوئے مذہبی تفریق کے تلخ دانے مل جائیں جس سے ساری بھوک ہی مر جاتی!۔
    सालन में ऐसे मसाल्हे बस न ही हों किः सालन नोश फ़र्माते हुए मज़्हबी तफ़्रीक़ के तल्ख़ दाने मिल जाएँ जिस से सारी भूक ही मर जाती!
     

    Wolverine9

    Senior Member
    American English
    You mentioned in one thread "bhratashri" - that no-one would speak like that but it was ma3suum rizaa raahii (Rahi Masoom Raza) who wrote all the dialogues for Mahabharat and mirrored the Urdu conversional etiquette and coined for the Hindi language "pitaashrii" etc. which everyone knows today, on the pattern of "abbaa jaan"...

    Are you sure he coined pitaashrii, etc.? Weren't those types of words used in the Ramayan serial, which preceded Mahabharat? I believe they were already in existence long before. It's just a slightly more formal way of saying pitaajii, etc. which has been around for centuries.

    Plus you can't say saalan karnaa nor khaanaa karnaa but you can bhojan karnaa and aahaar karnaa. On the other hand, you can say saalan khaanaa and khaanaa khaanaa but not bhojan khaanaa or aahaar khaanaa.
    I have always wondered why this was the case. If you know of any plausible explanation for this, please share. Also, I think aahaar has the type of formality in Hindi that xoraak has in Urdu.
     
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    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu

    Are you sure he coined pitaashrii, etc.? Weren't those types of words used in the Ramayan serial, which preceded Mahabharat? I believe they were already in existence long before. It's just a slightly more formal way of saying pitaajii, etc. which has been around for centuries.

    I have always wondered why this was the case. If you know of any plausible explanation for this, please share. Also, I think aahaar has the type of formality in Hindi that xuraak has in Urdu.
    I read about it in a book so my starting point is to be pretty sure but we are here to investigate matters! It's not only slightly formal or reverential I would say, it's a great deal more reverential than pitaajii (cf. posts by native Hindi speakers in other threads which I looked up, greatbear and littlepond, they say it is never used in speech but I know for sure pitaajii is normal - with the exception of DeDDii or paapaa in Hindi!).xuuraak or xoraak is not formal at all in Urdu, I also don't think those who use it in Hindi think of it as formal; the equivalent of aahaar of Hindi can be ta3aam in Urdu طعام in terms of ceremonious language;

    If my answer is plausible or not it is for other friends to comment on but for me "bhojan karnaa" is equivalent to "khaanaa" - to eat, to dine, (bhoj karnaa) to enjoy food = khaanaa khaanaa.
     

    Wolverine9

    Senior Member
    American English
    I read about it in a book so my starting point is to be pretty sure but we are here to investigate matters!
    I just saw a clip of the Ramayan on YouTube in which pitaashrii is used.

    If my answer is plausible or not it is for other friends to comment on but for me "bhojan karnaa" is equivalent to "khaanaa" - to eat, to dine, (bhoj karnaa) to enjoy food = khaanaa khaanaa.
    Thank you. Yes, that makes sense and saalan as a type of food would require the verb khaanaa for that reason.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    I just saw a clip of the Ramayan on YouTube in which pitaashrii is used.
    Thank you. Yes, that makes sense and saalan as a type of food would require the verb khaanaa for that reason.
    You're welcome but I wonder if one can say bhojan pakaanaa. saalan pakaanaa certainly yes, as well as khaanaa pakaanaa (very popular site in both India and Pakistan and overall with recipes).

    Re. pitaashrii - thanks for your research. If it predates Mahabharat then the author of that book was wrong and I was misled to use this argument. Unfortunately I can't recall which book it was, all I can remember is it was in English. I don't know much about these things, I watched several episodes of Mahabharat but I didn't watch Ramayan so I don't know.
     
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    littlepond

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    Most Muslims (or any other faith community for that matter) would not be aware of origins of any particular word.... your view about the purported preference of most Muslims (I surmise we don't explore further than the region of the Subcontinent) for loan-words of Persian or Arabic provenience is inaccurate.
    Of course, but most words give the speaker an idea where at least the immediate origins lie. People can be misled, as the usage of "va" demonstrates, which many of those use in Hindi who want to use less Urdu register. However, most Muslims afaik do consciously try to use Urdu: I have often heard the admonition to a Muslim friend of mine that he or she is not a "good Muslim" just because he or she uttered a word that comes in the non-Urdu register of Hindi. Language plays an important part of identity politics for Muslim minority in India. I do not know if you have lived in India, but if you have, you would know that.

    People use certain words because they are the ones they have grown up with.
    And sometimes the other reasons are that they are encouraged/admonished to use a certain set of words. We have already discussed, I believe, "Allah-hafeez" vs. "Xudaa-hafeez" on this thread. There wouldn't be that discussion at all if what you say were to be correct.

    (side note: shaakaahaarii is by and large a universally known word in India, isn't it?),
    It is a well-known word only in terms of its comprehensibility; the English word "vegetarian" is mostly used in conversation, not "shaakaahaarii". I did fail to see though where does this side note impact on this discussion.

    It is therefore wrong to emphasise religion-based linguistic preferences impromptu, especially when the context does not call for it.
    There is nothing wrong with it, considering that languages in the subcontinent especially are influenced by religious or faith upbringings, etc. Muslims in south India use a pigeon* Urdu, simply because they are required to know Urdu on account of their religion, even though their first languages would otherwise be Telugu, Kannada, etc. The context does call for it: many of the previous posts brought religion into discussion, and the word "saalan" itself can be a word associated with Muslims (see nikmahesh's post). I have in fact always associated it with only meat-based dishes, and so the association in popular imagination is not surprising (regardless of the fact that many, maybe a majority of, Hindus also eat meat).

    ... I have noticed also that you said "khaanaa" was not associated with Muslims but it seems there are people who do associate it with Muslims (hogwash) and they are people who think Muslims don't speak Hindi and are reluctant to use Hindi words.


    There are all sorts of people, otherwise we wouldn't be having this forum itself. I simply meant that in general "khaanaa" is not associated exclusively with Muslims. There still might be some people here and there who do have such an association in their mind. And I do agree that there are many and many Muslims who are reluctant or unwilling to use the non-Urdu register of Hindi. Wishing it away doesn't change reality.

    You mentioned in one thread "bhratashri" - that no-one would speak like that but it was ma3suum rizaa raahii (Rahi Masoom Raza) who wrote all the dialogues for Mahabharat and mirrored the Urdu conversional etiquette and coined for the Hindi language "pitaashrii" etc. which everyone knows today, on the pattern of "abbaa jaan"...
    I am sorry but your information is wrong: these words are very old words. Masoom Reza didn't coin them! They are words fallen into disuse, that's all, not that someone coined them out of thin air. Also, "pitaa shrii" is not the equivalent of "abbaa jaan": the former is stiff and formal, whereas the latter is an affectionate, endearing term. Rather, "pitaa jii" can be an equivalent.

    On the other hand, you can say saalan khaanaa and khaanaa khaanaa but not bhojan khaanaa or aahaar khaanaa.
    One rather uses "aahaar lenaa" more. Also, "bhojan khaanaa" can be used (again, also "bhojan lenaa"), though you are right that "bhojan karnaa" is the most often-used term.

    * Not used with any pejorative connotation.
     

    littlepond

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    You're welcome but I wonder if one can say bhojan pakaanaa.
    Yes, of course, one can and does say "bhojan pakaanaa".

    Re. pitaashrii - thanks for your research. If it predates Mahabharat then the author of that book was wrong and I was misled to use this argument. Unfortunately I can't recall which book it was, all I can remember is it was in English. I don't know much about these things, I watched several episodes of Mahabharat but I didn't watch Ramayan so I don't know.
    That is why it is better often to base things on actual facts (one's own experience or research), not on someone else's word.
     

    littlepond

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    it's a great deal more reverential than pitaajii (cf. posts by native Hindi speakers in other threads which I looked up, greatbear and littlepond, they say it is never used in speech but I know for sure pitaajii is normal - with the exception of DeDDii or paapaa in Hindi!).
    Could you please indicate the thread, marrish jii, where I seem to have said that "pitaajii" is never used in speech?
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Dear all,

    I see many posts about all kind of topics other than the one indicated in the title. I'm closing the thread till the moderators have to time to clean/edit it.

    Thank you for your patience. And please try to not forget the forum rules.

    Regards,
    Cherine
    Moderator
     
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