Urdu: typing/writing an izaafat with words ending in ا ,ی ,ہ

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by Alfaaz, Jun 23, 2013.

  1. Alfaaz Senior Member

    Background: It seems there are a few different ways of representing such izaafats.

    Questions: How do you usually type and write izaafats with words ending in ا ,ی ,ہ? Which of the following (if any) would be considered correct for afsaanah-e-shauq and could members provide the others in Urdu script?

    afsaanah-e-shauq: افسانۂِ شوق , افسانہِ شوق , افسانہ ئے شوق , افسانہءِ شوق

    intihaa-e-shauq, garmi-e-xuun, etc.
  2. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    افسانہٴ شوق، اِنتِہائے شوق، گرمیٴ خون، ماہٴ نَو
    (edit: the last one turned out to be incorrect although this confused spelling can be found even in print - not to be followed!)
    I know of one friend who would write intihaa-e-shauq in a different way.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
  3. Chhaatr Senior Member

    Could someone please explain to me why is there a hamza over "he" in the above post. I understand "hamza" is used when there are two consecutive vowel sounds.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
  4. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Alfaaz SaaHib, I am grateful to you for starting this thread and with your and the moderators' leave, I would like to cover this subject in detail and invite Urdu speakers and those with interest in Urdu writing to chip in and offer their views.

    Firstly to answer your question.
    afsaanah-i-shauq = افسانہءِ شوق

    However, the hamza (with an optional zer below it) should be just above the "he" but our typing conventions don't always allows this.

    Now a bit of back ground to the izaafat. This, as you would know, originally comes from the Arabic language. The boy's book would be: كتابُ ٱلوَلَدِ. You will notice the final "zer". It is this zer which actually gives the "kaa/ke/kii" meaning of Urdu "laRke kii kitaab". The Persian language expressed this idea by...کتابِ پسر.* Coincidentally, it is the zer again that imparts the kaa/ke/kii meaning. This construction in reality is kitaab [-i-pisar] and not [kitaab-i-] pisar.

    Now, believe it or not, in the good old days the izaafat had the sound of "i" as in the way we pronounce "dil". You can hear this pronunciation in Tajik Persian and I can send a link to interested parties of a Tajik song which demonstrates this pronunciation. In time the pronunciation of the izaafat i became more like our baRii ye and this is why in Roman -e- is used by most people and the Iranians have gone a step further and pronounce dil as del (and gul as gol....which is not quite the same as our gol for round!). When the word ends with an alif, we use a baRii ye with a hamza on top but the Iranians just use the chhoTii ye.

    Classical Persian had the sound equivalent to our baRii ye and in Modern Persian this has almost totally disappeared, except in the Persian of Afghanistan and the way it is represented by people from the subcontinent.
    kitaab (book) > kitaabe (a book) کتابے
    A red book > کتابے سرخ
    kitaabhaa (books) کتابہا > kitaabhaae (some books)کتابہائے
    Some red books > کتابہائے سرخ
    The red book > کتاب ِ سرخ

    The red books > کتابہائے سرخ

    You will notice that there is no difference between "Some red books" and "The red books" in the way izaafat is often represented in the Urdu speaking world. But careful writers do use an alternative means.

    ہے کس قدر ہلاک ِ فریب ِ وفاے گل
    بلبل کی کاروبار پہ ہیں خنده ہاے گل


    The following is a well known Ghalib shi3r

    بیاورید گر اینجا بود زباندانے
    غریبِ شہر سخنہائے گفتنی دارد

    laa'o agar yahaaN hove ko'ii bhii zabaan jaan_ne vaalaa
    shahr ke ajnabii ke paas kuchh kahne-jogii baateN haiN

    Here, it could be سخنہاے گفتنی which means (the) things worth saying as opposed to some things worth saying. What did Ghalib actually say?

    To summarize:

    tuu aur aaraa'ish-i-xam-i-kaakul
    maiN aur andeshah-haa-i-duur-daraaz


    افسانہءِ شوق
    ماہِ نو
    اندیشہ ہاے دور و دراز
    انتہاے شوق
    گرمیءِ خون

    * A better example from the Urdu perspective might be "amiiru_lmu2miniin" اميرُٱلمؤمنين
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
  5. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    marrish SaaHib, I agree with the first two (افسانہٴ شوق، اِنتِہائے شوق) but in both garmii-e-xuun / garmiy-e-xuun and maah-e-nau we don't use the hamza: گرمی خون = گرمی ِ خون and ماہ نو = ماہ ِ نو, where the zer is used to denote the izaafat as it is not a diphthongal pronunciation, like the first two, afsaana-e-shauq and intihaa-e-shaauq, but گرمی خون garmiy-e-xuun and ماہ نو maah-e-nau.
  6. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Chhaatr SaaHib, I assume you are talking about this <افسانہٴ شوق afsaana-e-shauq>. I just explained above why. If we didn't have this hamzah then it would be: افسانہ شوق = afsaanah shauq! Having said this, smart Urdu readers would know that this is a typo and would still manage to read it correctly as afsaana-e-shauq.
  7. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Once I had the pleasure of reading a magazine entitled ''maah-e-nau'' and its title was written with a hamzah on top of ''he'', as far as I can remember!
  8. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    That is interesting but for reasons I mention above we don't do it because it isn't a "diphthongal" pronunciation since the 'he' intervenes. Same for گرمی خون - again no diphthong present but only an extension of the ''ye / yaa'' sound.
  9. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Faylasoof SaaHib and other friends, I would like to refer you to the poetry volume ''silsilah-e-Gham''.

    p. 41 verse 4:*** مجریٴ یادِ حق ہے یا علیؑ mujraa-ye-yaad-e-Haqq hai yaa 3Alii
    p. 68 v. 6: دیدہٴ تر diida(h)=diida-e-tar (diphthong)
    p. 63 last verse: بادہٴ جوش baada(h)-e-josh (diphthong)
    p. 57 v. 4:خوردہٴ برمن xwurda(h)-e-bar-man... (diphthong)

    p. 39 v. 6: ہر ایک ذرّہٴ راہِ وفا ہَےعرش پسند har ek zarra(h)-e(diphthong)-raah-e (no diphthong!)-wafaa hai 3arsh pasand

    So I agree that maah-e-nau should be written with a zer
    ماہِ نو whilst I tend to remain at my standpoint that izaafat after chhoTii ye (yaa) should be written with a hamzah مجریٴ یاد، گرمیٴ خون.

    And also p. 70 v. 11:
    کیفِ غم دے اور مَےٴ حُبّ تو لا مجھکو دے kaif-e-Gham de aur mai-e-Hubb to laa mujh ko de

    For aa-izaafat there is e.g. p. 84 v. 6
    رضائے حق ہو تو مرنا بھی زندگانی ہے rizaa-e-Haqq ho to marnaa bhii zindagaanii hai.

    EDIT*** There appears to be an issue that the sign after 3alii doesn't show properly on all computers and there is a big square (I hope it is of the same size as the quotations). The sign which is there is a ligature, or perhaps better a symbol for 3alaihis-salaam.
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2013
  10. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I believe in the "ii-i-x" formation, both variations are in vogue.

    shoxii-i-taHriir شوخئ تحریر and شوخی ِتحریر

    My preference would be for the former because I believe we have "shoxii-i-" and not "shoxiy-i-". Hamid Ali Khan's compilation of "diivaan-i-Ghalib" has this format. There is a Ghazal with the matla3

    rux-i-nigaar se hai soz-i-jaavidaanii-i-sham3
    hu'ii hai aatash-i-gul aab-i-zindagaanii-i-sham3

    where all the -ii-i- words are depicted by a hamzah.

    We have the same representation in "kulliyaat-i-Iqbal". In the "i3tizaar" to "baaNg-i-daraa", his son Jaaved Iqbal writes.."kalaam-i-Iqbal ke ab tak jitne edition shaa'i3 hu'e vuh sab ke sab unhiiN pleToN se tab3 hote rahe haiN jinheN Hazrat 3allaamah marHuum ne xud apnii nigraanii meN taiyyaar karvaayaa thaa..".
  11. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Faylasoof SaaHib has already explained it so let me add a point. In afsaanah-e-Gham the final ''-h'' remains silent and what remains for pronunciation is [afsaana--> afsaana-e-Gham], hence hamzah to indicate the two consecutive vowels. Here, unlike maah (moon, month), -h is only a graphic symbol.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
  12. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    These are very good examples and precisely what I had in mind, marrish SaaHib! The "diphthongal" rule becomes obvious here. As you know I'm familiar with this work!;)

    It may be of interest to note that in Arabic the hamza issue requires an entire chapter or two in grammar books! We are in a sense "luckier" in Urdu because often hamza is not written and these days the hamza in print gets omitted more often than not, on the net at least. This could in part be due to many software programs not catering for it (or people not being sure!). In fact, for both programs I have I can't always put a hamza where I need it!
  13. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    QP SaaHib, I've seen this but I think it is not needed since we have the pronunciation shoxiy-e-taHriir, no diphthong. Also, the first term being شوخی shoxii and not شوخئ shoxii', i.e. no hamza (= no glottal stop), means I prefer the second (شوخی ِتحریر )form.

    Edit: Just to add: In "amiiru_lmu2miniin" اميرُٱلمؤمنين we need the hamza because it is a glottal stop found on the wau in the original, though most Urduphones don't bother pronouncing it and some are no longer even "printing" it on the net. They may still write by hand, of course.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
  14. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I hope I have not misunderstood you Faylasoof SaaHib but I do not regard the hamzah as a glottal stop (in the sense it is used in amiiru_lmu2miniin). For me both depictions are valid but I prefer the izaafat in shoxii-i-taHriir to be written with a hamzah (strictly speaking with a zer underneath) instead of just the zer on its own.

    This Ghalib shi3r illustrates both hamzah and zer usage for the izaafat.
    کمال ِگرمیء سعی ِتلاش ِ دید نہ پوچه
    بہ رنگ ِ خار مرے آئنے سےجوہرکهینچ

  15. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi

    QP SaaHib, the original usage of hamza is of course a glottal stop but in Urdu we don't always use it this way but sometime we do (below), apart from using it also for diphthong formation as illustrated in the above posts.

    Hamza in diphthong formation - above posts.

    Hamza as a glottal stop (or at times as a substitute for 'ye'):

    جز juz - has a hamza in the original Arabic but in Urdu we neither write it nor pronounce it - no long vowel preceding it.

    But, its derivative is of course juz2ii:
    جزئی we both write the hamza and pronounce it, i.e. juz2ii and not juzii ! So the hamza is pronounced as a glottal stop in the middle of the word by us.

    Take irtiqaa. This is written ارتقا in Urdu. As you know it is actually ارتقاء irtiqaa2 which is how we (myself and family) tend to pronounce it in normal speech because the ending hamza is preceded by a long vowel - the alif - in the original, and of course its derivative is ارتقا ئی irtiqaa2ii - always written with a hamza and we also say so, as a glottal stop.

    Same for jazaa, wirtten as جزا in Urdu but is of course جزأ jazaa2. Hence, جزائی jazaa2ii. Again we pronounce the hamza in both for the same reasons as for irtiqaa2 above. However, one also sees it as جزایی jazaii, hence we have قوانین جزائی and قوانین جزایی - either with or without the hamza, the 'ye' and hamza substituted one for the other. Many other examples too.

    But as for words like garmii, they are just that, i.e. گرمی is garmii and not garmii2. Therefore in compounds it is pronounced garmiy-e-xuun and not garmii2-e-xuun, the compound lacking any diphthong and additionally since the original word has no ending hamza, the compound doesn't need to have one either.

    Which is why I feel this is the correct way to write the she3r of Ghalib:

    کمال ِگرمی ِ سعی ِتلاش ِ دید نہ پوچه

    I have seen this (as you presented):
    کمال ِگرمیء سعی ِتلاش ِ دید نہ پوچه

    But what is the function of this hamza in گرمیء and why omit it in سعی ?

    One might as well write it as:

    کمال ِگرمیء سعیء تلاش ِ دید نہ پوچه

    IMHO, this is doubly wrong! What I mean is that the inclusion of hamza in گرمیء or سعیء cannot really be explained since neither have a hamza to begin with. It certainly is not serving as a substitute for 'ye', as in جزایی jazaaii instead of جزائی jazaa2ii.
  16. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I would like to say that izaafat has two forms: i/e and yi/ye, the latter when following a long vowel. garmii is originally a Persian word and ye denotes a long vowel -ii which, to the best of my knowledge does not fall into the category of Arabic-derived words which can be divided in y+i. This appears to be the reason for which سعی's last ye can be treated as a semi-consonant yy or y+i and it does not need a hamzah but a zer, in contrary to garmii which forms izaafat in the following way (of course I may be wrong on this point but it is what I am quite convinced about and it explains the difference between garmii and sa3yy. garmii-ye-sa3yy-e-talaash.

    And I forgot to say that I myself do write irtiqaa2 with a hamzah, but I have to confess that I don't do it with jazaa2. maa2tam. mo2min I do. binaa2 I do. I think it is very inconsequent from my side but I have seen lots of times people write irtiqaa2 and binaa2, even on the net with the proper "hamzation". Needless to say I always pronounce them unless in speedy speech, so you and your elders are not alone.
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2013
  17. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Sorry, marrish SaaHib I have to disagree with you because the way you are describing it suggests a level of stress of the ending 'ye' of garmii - or have I misunderstood you? I see no need for this hamzah.
  18. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    As this thread is about the writing or typing of izaafats in those positions, hamzah is not meant to be pronounced as it is in Urdu/Arabic in certain positions the same way as one does not produce a glottal stop in ہوا where in a technical way a hamzah should be there or more pictoresque ہوئے or جائے. I'm glad we can exchange our thoughts on this subject because I can see many inconsequences or even blunders in Urdu publications, one of them being the magazine maah-e-nau.

    In Persian of course the accent lies on the last syllable so garmii will be accented in this way but it is not the case of Urdu. I think that even without putting stress on ye of garmii there should be SOMETHING to denote the izaafat for those who might not be able to pronounce it promptly.
  19. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Actually, we do pronounce the hamza when speaking normally but most wouldn't. Same as the above examples of jazaa2 and irtiqaa2 etc.
    Well, as I see it there really shouldn't be a problem in indicating an izaafat by just putting a zer after the 'ye' in garmii .... and the pronunciation shouldn't be a problem either.

    I agree, this is a useful thread as we are trying to iron out our differences as best we can. Of course we shall continue to see hamza used in publications where it really doesn't need to be but at least we are getting to grips with what is going on.
  20. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I am in fact indebted for this discussion with so many prominent opinons, especially yours, but still consuetudo altera natura est. I can't imagine putting a vowel sign zer with a vowel sign long ii.
  21. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    marrish SaaHib, we are all humans so some might even do this ِ ے ! Errare humanum est !
  22. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Faylasoof SaaHib, I don't believe the current issue has anything remotely to do with the hamzah in words such as juz2, ajzaa2, irtiqaa2, jazaa2 and the like. In this thread, the issue raised is to do with the representation of the izaafat after vowels both short [e.g as in afsaanana(h), naala(h)] and long [as in intihaa, garmii, shoxii, taNgii and buu, juu, muu, ruu].With consonants, we know the purpose is fulfilled by simply adding a zer.




    So we have a
    consonant + zer, the end result being ri, hi and 3i.

    For an izaafat with vowels, we will end up with a vowel (short or long) + zer, i.e.

    a +i, aa +i, ii +i, uu +i

    Clearly, this will cause some pronunciation problems and in order to avoid this situation, a hamzah (2) acting as a kind of consonant is added before the vowels. (As you know, in Arabic, it is a consonant).

    diida(h) + 2+i+tar (phir mujhe diidhah-2i-tar yaad aayaa)

    saxt-jaanii-haa +2+i+tanhaa2ii (kaav-kaav-i-saxt jaanii-haa-2i-tanhaa2ii nah puuchh)

    taNgii-2+i+dil (zaxm ne daad nah dii taNgii-2i-dil kii yaa rab)

    buu-2+i+gul (buu-2i-gul, naalah-2i-dil, duud-i-charaaGh-i-maHfil)

    Thus we end up with a situation of consonant + zer with words ending in a consonant and a consonant ( 2, hamzah)+ zer with words ending in vowels. Either way, it is consonant + zer (izaafat)

    Regarding the shi3r I quoted with the word "sa3y", the fact of the matter is that this word has a fa3l pattern and the "y" (ye) at the end is a consonant. So, no hamzah is required there.

    کمال ِگرمیء سعی ِتلاش ِ دید نہ پوچه
    بہ رنگ ِ خار مرے آئنے سےجوہرکهینچ

    kamaal-i-garmii-2i-sa3y-i-talaash-i-diid nah puuchh
    yih rang-i-xaar mire aa2ine se jauhar kheNch

    If we still disagree, then it is best to agree to disagree.:)
  23. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    QP SaaHib, I've made my postion very clear - hamza has no place in گرمیء (!) - quite meaningless, as I see it and the literary tradition we follow. So yes, let us leave it at that.
  24. Alfaaz Senior Member

    Thanks to everyone for the detailed explanations and relevant references!
  25. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Since this discussion has not come to any sort of agreement or the relevant references seem sufficient I thought I would carry out a small (re)search in order to find manuscript samples by a few of our masters. This has given me the opportunity to reconnect with hundreds of pages of Urdu literature and I am glad to introduce all of you to some specimens of it, making use of this opportunity. It seems that Mirza Ghalib either didn't feel like indicating izaafat except after alif or waaw, or perhaps that was the norm in his days but Allamah Iqbal and Amir Minai did and the following few examples illustrate their choice of representing the izaafat after the long [-ii] vowel. Moreover there are several handwritten collections of Mirza Ghalib's prose and poetry, the excerpts from prose having been taken from the collection named 'Urdu-e-mu3allaa' which I think is familiar to some of us.

    Herewith I am attaching a series of small pictures, mostly representing one or two verses. Because of the restriction of maximum 5 files per post I will continue uploading in the next one. In the final post I will try to retype the contents and ascribe particular pieces to their authors.

    View attachment 12025 Manuscript by Iqbal:

    زندگی از گرمیٴ ذکر است و بس zindagii az garmii2-e-zikr ast-o-bas
    حُرّیت از عِفت فکر است و بس Hurriyyat az 3iffat-e-fikr ast-o-bas
    View attachment 12026 Manuscript by Amir Minai:

    گُل کھِلاتی ہوئی آئی کسی دامن کی ہوا gul khilaatii hu'ii aa'ii kisii daaman kii hawaa
    لے اڑی بلبل ِ ناشاد کو گلشن کی ہوا le uRii bulbul-e-naashaad ko gulshan kii hawaa
    غیرتِ باد صبا بن گئی ھے بن کی ہوا Ghairat-e-baad-e-Sabaa ban ga'ii hai ban kii hawaa
    کہتی ھے مل کے گلے وادیٴ ایمن کی ہوا
    kahtii hai mil ke gale waadii2-e-ayman kii hawaa

    View attachment 12027 Handwritten couplet of Ghalib by Sayyid Nafees Raqm (diiwaan-e-Ghaalib Hamid Ali Khan, Lahore 1969):​

    ہوں مَیں بھی تما شــا ئــئ نَیرنگِ تمــــنّـا
    مطلب نہیں کچھ اِس سے کہ مطلب ہی بر آوے
    huuN maiN bhii tamaashaa'ii2-e-nairang-e-tamannaa
    matlab nahiiN kuchh is se kih matlab hii bar aawe

    View attachment 12028 Handwritten passage of Ghalib's letter from "Urduu-e-mu3allaa", Dehli, 1908

    اب نہ فارسی کی فکر نہ اُردو کا ذکر نہ دُنیا میں توقع نہ عقبیٰ کی اُمّید ۔ مَیں ہُوں اور اندوہ ناکامئ جاوید جیسا کہ خود ایک قصیدہ نعت کی تشبیب
    میں کہتا ہُوں؎۔
    چشم کشودہ اند بکردار ہائے من ۔۔۔۔ زآیندہ نااُمیدم وازرفتہ شرمسار

    ab nah faarsii kii fikr nah urduu kaa zikr nah dunyaa meN tawaqqu3 nah 3uqbaa kii ummiid.
    maiN huuN aur andoh-e-naa-kaamii2-e-jaawiid jaisaa kih xwud ek qaSiidah na3t kii tashbiib meN kahtaa huuN:

    chashm kushuudah-and ba-kirdaar-haa-ye-man ... zi-aayandah naa-umiidam va az raftah sharmsaar​

    Edit: due to some technical reasons please bear with me. I promise I will fix it by tomorrow.​
    Edit2: main issues fixed and contents added. Don't hesitate to create new threads about words or phenomena you find interesting! The next part will arrive in some other format.
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2013
  26. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    As I mentioned above, it depends on which tradition one is following.
  27. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Here is the following part of quotations from handwritten sources, as promised, with regard to the way of writing izaafat after ی:


    In the next installment I will provide the texts in the same way as in post 24, with retyped Urdu text plus transliteration. Most of the couplets there are Ghalib's.
  28. Alfaaz Senior Member

    Thanks for the references marrish SaaHib.
  29. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    marrish SaaHib, thank you for your painstaking work demonstrating the use of hamza after -ii by well known literary figures.
  30. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Thanks for the appreciation, I have a feeling that it hasn't been in vain all of this!

    I am going to transliterate the other part of excerpts but I don't know the first word in the first shi3r (from the right side). Can somebody help me?
  31. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Do you mean..

    hu'ii hai kis qadar arzaanii-i-mai jalvah
    kih mast hai tire kuuche meN hr ar-o-diivaar
  32. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Absolutely no, from the right side. This one can be good for Cilq.. SaaHib's thread.
  33. Alfaaz Senior Member

    marrish SaaHib, the word is آبگینہ - aabgeenah tundi-e-Sahbaa' se pighlaa jaa'e hai

    Since you commented in another thread that you like dramatic examples, here is one from a television drama (the name of which is not coming to mind):
    ذرا آبگینہ تو ادھر دینا
    معاشرے میں شہرت وعزت کا مقام پانا تو شاید آسان ہو، لیکن برقرار رکھنا کافی مشکل ہو سکتا ہے چونکہ یہ اس آبگینے کی طرح نازک ہوتا ہے

    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  34. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Perfect, thank you. I made a thread about it and Faylasoof SaaHib answered as well. Thanks for the example!!
  35. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Interesting, C.M.Naim in his grammar book, in section 8.11 covering the script, has
    بیماریءِ عشق
  36. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I think it is because they couldn't type it above ye. بیمارئِ عشق it should have been.
  37. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Sorry, my focus was n't on the precise location of the hamzah but the mere presence of the hamzah, instead of just the zer.
  38. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    You know it happens that I skip the obvious things and go on quest of ''fault-finding'' - so what I didn't say is that hamzah is necessary otherwise zer hasn't got a place to ''hang'' on. C.M. Naim's example is perhaps the most precise one because the hamzah on its own would have no value and it needs zer - but as the practice generally goes, one does not use zer, zabar and pesh in writing, resulting in hamzah only.

    More interestingly, Ruth Laila Schmidt writes in her well praised grammar that it is only zer!

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