Urdu: Words with letter ژ (Zh) [ ʒ ]

Qureshpor

Senior Member
Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
zh-png.83295


This image is taken from #6 of the thread Hindi: झ़

It is true that words with letter ژ within Persian do not constitute a very large number but they are not "rare". Furthermore, it is not true that Urdu has only two words with this sound in it, namely اژدہا and پُرژہ. As for the latter I have only known this word as پُرزہ and I am not sure if پُرژہ exists. I may, however, be wrong about this.

When we first learn to read and write Urdu, the sample word that is given for the letter ژ is

1) ژالہ (hail)

Other words that one gradually becomes accustomed to as one's vocabulary increases are..

2) اژدہا (dragon/serpent)

3) اژدر (dragon/serpent)

We have already gone beyond the 2 threshold.


Others that readily come to mind are مِژگاں eyelashes, ژولیدہ dishevelled, ژیاں raging, ژند old rag / Old Persian / Zoroaster's book, پژمُردہ withered, لاژورد lapis lazuli, نژاد race, کژدم scorpion, مُژدہ good news, ژاژ a kind of thistle eaten by camels, ژاژ خا idle talker (بیہودہ گو). This is not an exhaustive list.

I would like Urdu knowing friends to add to this list if possible and quote any usages.
 
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  • ہژدہ، دژم، ژرف، ژندہ، ژد، ژنگ، ژوپین، ژُون، واژ/واژونی/واژونہ/واژگون، ژیان/ژیاں، ژیوہ، آژنگ، وغیرہ
     
    Thank you Alfaaz SaaHib. When you get a moment, if you can add meanings for these please. ژیاں is already included in my post.
     
    In fact, most words with [ ʒ ] in classical Persian are considered early borrowings from the northwestern Iranian languages. Over time, many of these words either fell out of use or the [ ʒ ] sound was replaced by [ dʒ ] or [ z ].
     
    Qureshpor said:
    When you get a moment, if you can add meanings for these please.

    • ہژدہ - ۱۸
    • دژم - چشمگین؛ سیاہ؛ بدقسمت؛ وغیرہ
    • ژرف - عمق، گہرائی، وغیرہ
    • ژندہ - پرانا کپڑا، چیتھڑا، وغیرہ
    • ژد - گنبد؛ انگ: cone
    • ژنگ - جلاجل؛ مرقّع (انگ: album)
    • ژوپین - برچھی
    • ژُون - بت
    • واژ/واژونی/واژونہ/واژگون - معکوس
    • ژیان/ژیاں - تند خو؛ بہادر
    • ژیوہ - سیماب
    • آژنگ - شکن
    • فاژہ - جمائی
    • نژند - متعدد معانی - لغت سے رجوع کریں
    • نژہ - انگ: philtrum
    • مژد - صلہ؛ اجرت
    • نائژہ ← نائزہ - انگ: urethra
    • کژدم - عقرب
    • ہژبر/ہزبر - شیرببر؛ دبیر؛ وغیرہ
    • غژمان - غضب ناک
    • دژ - قلعہ؛ خراب
    • پژوان - بھٹی
    • پژمان - افسردہ
    • باژ - خراج، باج
     
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    لغت دیکھے بغیر
    رپورتاژ ، رپورتاژ نگاری [نوع صحافیت]، ڈویژن [محکمہ کا حصہ]، ٹیلی ویژن، پژاوہ (پزاوہ،)۔ژالہ باری (=ژالہ کا طوفان)، ژوب (پاکستان کا ایک شہر،
     
    marrish said:
    لغت دیکھے بغیر
    رپورتاژ ، رپورتاژ نگاری [نوع صحافیت]، ڈویژن [محکمہ کا حصہ]، ٹیلی ویژن​
    قریش پور صاحب غالبا "خالص فارسی" الفاظ کے متعلق پوچھ رہے تھے۔ اگر ہم انگریزی، فرانسیسی اور دیگر زبانوں کے اردو میں مستعمل الفاظ یا ان کے مفرسات و مؤردات کی بات کریں تو پھر تو شاید ڈھیروں اور الفاظ بھی اس فہرست میں مشمول ہو سکتے ہیں - جیسے سبوتاژ۔
     
    قریش پور صاحب غالبا "خالص فارسی" الفاظ کے متعلق پوچھ رہے تھے۔ اگر ہم انگریزی، فرانسیسی اور دیگر زبانوں کے اردو میں مستعمل الفاظ یا ان کے مفرسات و مؤردات کی بات کریں تو پھر تو شاید ڈھیروں اور الفاظ بھی اس فہرست میں مشمول ہو سکتے ہیں - جیسے سبوتاژ۔

    آپ حق بجانب ہیں لیکن جن الفاظ کا جنابِ مرّش صاحب نے ذکر کیا ہے وہ سب اِس لڑی میں قابلِ قبول ہیں مع آپ کے سبوتاژ کے۔

    ایک اور۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔ بُورژوا​
     
    Qureshpor said:
    آپ حق بجانب ہیں لیکن جن الفاظ کا جنابِ مرّش صاحب نے ذکر کیا ہے وہ سب اِس لڑی میں قابلِ قبول ہیں مع آپ کے سبوتاژ کے۔

    ایک اور۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔ بُورژوا​
    وضاحت کے لیے شکریہ۔ اگر ایسی بات ہے تو : ژانرا، کنفیوژن، پرووژن، فژن، فیوژن، لیژر، یوژوئل، سیژر، ایمنیژیا، اینستھیژیا، ایکسپوژر، میژر، پلیژر، ڈسژن، ورژن، کنکلوژن، ایکسپلوژن، کنورژن، روژن/ریوژن، ایژیا، اینکلوژر، وغیرہ وغیرہ
     
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    A few more Persian ones which may be relevant:

    پژواک - echo
    ویژه - special/specific/particular
    واژه - word
    نژند - nažand/sad/اندوهگین
    بژهان - božhân/a wish to have something that someone has without jealousy towards them - غبطه
    رژم - battle/رزم
    رژه - march/parade/line
    ژیوه - mercury جیوه
    گوژ - bent over/hunched also قوز
    کژ - bent/not straight کج (mentioned already in کژدم)
    ناژ - pine (tree) کاج

    Verbs:
    پژوهش - پژوهییدن - to study/research


    پژ in پژواک, پژمرده and پژمان is a variation of پس/pas with the sense of after, back & over respectively.

    There also two names: بیژن & منیژه which are as old you can get, also ژاله, which as well as meaning hailstone, is a given female name and used in names of two villages, دره ژاله and هنگ ژاله.
     
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    Thank you @PersoLatin for the additional words incorporating ژ. From your list I can relate to پژمردہ, نژند, کژ, ویژہ and possibly پژوھیدن but the rest are new to me. So, it seems that ژ in Persian is not "very rare" as indicated in the photo shot in #1.
     
    And how many of these words are used in modern language?
    OR
    How many words is understandable to an ordinary person with a secondary education without looking into dictionaries and reference books?

    P.S. Considering the Persian influence had on Urdu, possibly any Persian word could be used in an Urdu text 😎
     
    And how many of these words are used in modern language?
    OR
    How many words is understandable to an ordinary person with a secondary education without looking into dictionaries and reference books?
    This would be off-topic in this thread as the language title is "Urdu". The author of your book is saying the letter ژ is very rare in Persian, which you can see is not the case. S/he is also saying that there are only two words with the letter ژ in Hindusatani (Urdu) which also is not true. That is all. There is no mention of whether words with this phoneme are understood by ordinary people with secondary education. This is irrelevant and we need not discuss this matter any further. I would appreciate this very much.

     
    Alexu said:
    And how many of these words are used in modern language?
    OR
    How many words is understandable to an ordinary person with a secondary education without looking into dictionaries and reference books?
    Of the words mentioned, ژالہ، اژدہا، مژہ|مژگان، ژولیدہ، پژمردہ، نژاد، مژدہ، واژگوں might be readily recognizable for speakers, since they are commonly used in speech, news/political programs, Pakistani Urdu television dramas, and/or ghazals that became popular after being included in films or television.
    • ژالہ باری is used regularly in weather forecasts.
    • اژدہا is used in dialogues such as "Little did we know that we were harboring an اژدہا in our آستین."
    • پاکستانی/ایرانی/برطانوی/امریکی/جاپانی/وغیرہ نژاد can be read/heard in news.
    • ژولیدہ is used commonly in the expressions زلفِ ژولیدہ (poetry, film/drama dialogues) and ژولیدہ حال (political shows).
    • واژگوں can be heard in shows about politics, etc.
    • پژمردہ can be seen in acadmeic contexts (Psychology, etc.).
    • Apart from literature (quoted below), مژدہ can be read/heard in religious contexts as a synonym for بشارت and نوید.
    Speakers might recognize many of the words from ghazals. Examples:

    مژدہ پھر لائے کوئی کل، یہ ضروری تو نہیں
    خواب سارے ہوں مکمّل، یہ ضروری تو نہیں

    رفیق خیال

    ہم اشکِ غمّ ہیں اگر تھم رہے رہے نہ رہے
    مژہ پہ آن کے ٹک جم رہے رہے نہ رہے

    نظیر اکبرآبادی

    موتی ہوں تو پھر سوزنِ مژگاں سے پرو لو
    آنسو ہوں تو دامن پہ گرا کیوں نہیں دیتے

    مرتضیٰ برلاس

    (The list above focuses on Persian-origin words. The English, French, or Persianized/Urduized words mentioned in posts #7-10 would be very common as well.)
     
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    This would be off-topic in this thread as the language title is "Urdu". The author of your book is saying the letter ژ is very rare in Persian, which you can see is not the case. S/he is also saying that there are only two words with the letter ژ in Hindusatani (Urdu) which also is not true.
    It is probably relevant what Agnieszka Kuczkiewicz-Fraś, the author of this text whose screenshot appears in the OP, means by her use of the word "Hindustani." Here are some excerpts from pp. 29--32:
    In the sense which has been assumed for the purpose of this analysis, the term Hindustani refers to the linguistic continuum current in the common speech - a lingua franca, unofficially, but fully functioning as a link language in the Indian subcontinent. It denotes the common form of a medium of communication - the vernacular widespread in the vast regions of contemporary Northern India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, intelligible for the most part to users of both Hindi and Urdu...​
    The linguistic material (Perso-Arabic loanwords in Hindustani) which forms the basis for the research in this study generally comes from middlebrow registers (both casual and formalized). However, some parts of it can also appear in the inventories of the lowest and the highest strata... Hindi and Urdu will be treated as two forms of Hindustani, differing most noticeably in their highly literary and intellectual varieties but lacking any visible distinctions in their everyday forms of use.​

    She also gives concrete examples of what she means by "middlebrow registers (both casual and formalized)" in the image below.

    book.png


    It is worth noting that poetry, for her, is not "middlebrow" but "formalized highbrow." In light of this context, @Alexu's questions seem quite on-topic to me.
    And how many of these words are used in modern language?
    OR
    How many words is understandable to an ordinary person with a secondary education without looking into dictionaries and reference books?
    Here are some counts. Feel free to double-check my counts and lists and correct me if I'm wrong.

    I focus on the Persian-origin ژ loanwords mentioned in this thread because Perso-Arabic loans are the topic of the book by Kuczkiewicz-Fraś. I make some groups out of مژگان/مژگاں/مژہ and ژیان/ژیاں and ژند/ژندہ and واژ/واژونی/واژونہ/واژگون/واژگوں and کژ/کژدم and ژاژ/ژاژ خا, and I then count 26 words/groups:

    (1) لاژورد , (2) پرژہ , (3) ژالہ , (4) اژدہا , (5) مژدہ , (6) مژگان/مژگاں/مژہ , (7) کژ/کژدم , (8) اژدر , (9) ژولیدہ , (10) ژیان/ژیاں , (11) ژند/ژندہ , (12) پژمردہ , (13) نژاد , (14) ژاژ/ژاژ خا , (15) دژم , (16) ژندہ , (17) واژ/واژونی/واژونہ/واژگون/واژگوں , (18) نژند , (19) ژد , (20) ژنگ , (21) ژوپین , (22) ژون , (23) ژیوہ , (24) آژنگ , (25) ویژہ , (26) ژوب

    Hopefully I haven't missed any of the suggestions above! Please feel free to recompute if I did.
    • To the extent that I am an ordinary person with secondary education (which I do feel myself to be -- though it is worth qualifying that the medium of my secondary education was not in either "form" of Hindustani-as-defined-by-Kuczkiewicz-Fraś, so feel free to ignore this)... I've known the word اژدہا for a reasonably long time (as in, I don't know where or how I first encountered it). I remember having to look up مژگاں، مژدہ، ژالہ after encountering them in literary writing (and two of these I remember encountering in poetry specifically, which Kuczkiewicz-Fraś categorizes as "formalized highbrow"). I may have recognized پرژہ، لاژورد، کژ in context from knowing پرزہ، لاجورد، کج ادائی. I'm quite uncertain that I would actually have recognized کژ, but even if I decide to be maximally generous to myself, I get to 7/26 = 27%. (Yikes! Failing grade...!!)
    • Alfaaz jii marks 8/26 = 31% of these words/groups as being "readily recognizable" to some speakers in post #17.
    • If I search Google for pages on rekhta.org (and if I ignore dictionary-only pages, Persian-language content, and other things that don't fit in the list of 26 Persian-origin words/groups listed above, eg, ژنگ meaning "Jung" or ژون meaning "zone"), I see hits for 16/26 = 61% of them. Many of these occurrences are in "formalized highbrow" poetry.
    • 17/26 = 65% of these words/groups have entries in Platts.
    • 22/26 = 85% of these words/groups have entries in Urdu Lughat.
    On a related note, apparently "native speakers know 15,000 to 20,000 word families - or lemmas - in their first language." If I assume that the 15,000 number is accurate for an ordinary native speaker of Hindustani-as-defined-byKuczkiewicz-Fraś, and I also assume that an ordinary native speaker knows all 26 of the words listed above... 26/15,000 = 0.173%. The percentage will only get smaller if either the denominator should be higher or the numerator should be lower -- or if we were to weight words by frequency of occurrence.
     
    aevynn SaaHib,
    Hopefully I haven't missed any of the suggestions above! Please feel free to recompute if I did.
    To add to your enumeration, you have missed a few and I've added some additional ones.

    • 27. ہژدہ
    • 28. فاژہ​
    • 29. مژد​
    • 30. غژمان​
    • 31. دژ۔ دژبان​
    • 32. پژاوہ​
    • 33. پژوان​
    • 34. باژ​
    • 35. پاژند
    • 36. ژال
      ؎ کیا ہوا رستم؛ ہوا کیا پیر ژال؟
      کیا ہوا وہ کر و فر جاہ و جلال؟
      (۱۷۸۰ ، مظہر جانِ جاناں (مظہر جانِ اور ان کا اُردو کلام ، ۳۱۱).​
    • 37. ژلّہ
      ۔ پس خوردہ، جھوٹن، بچا ہوا کھانا نیز ر ک : زلہ جو زیادہ مستعمل ہے۔ (فرہنگِ آصفیہ)​
    • 38. پژوہش۔ پژوہ، پژوہی ۔ اس کو حکم ہوا کہ پھر جا کر وہ افغانوں کی پژوہش میں کوشش کرے۔ (۱۸۹۷، تاریخ ہندوستان، ۵ :۵۵۵)۔ “تاریخ پڑھنے کا مقصد حرف گیری اور نقائص پژوہی ہرگز نہیں۔ (۱۹۷۳، مقام عدالت، ۵)۔​
    • 39. ارژنگ۔ارژنگی​
    • 40. اژدھات
      یا جوج و ماجوج کی روک تھام کے لیے اژدھات کی ایک دیوار بنوائی تھی. ( ۱۹۲۶ ، شرر ، مضامین ، ۳ : ۱۷۶ )​
    • 41. /اژدہام/اژدحام/اژدحامی
      ساحل پہ تیرے ہوتا ہے اژدہام اب بھی
      سیراب تجھ سے ہوتے ہیں تشنہ کام اب بھی
      ( ۱۹۲۹ ، مطلع انوار ، ۳۰ ).​
    • 42. اژگر
      زلف تیری کے ہر اک حلقے میں ہے اژگر کا کام
      ہربھنور کے بیچ اس کالندری کے ناگ ہے
      ( ۱۷۱۸ ، دیوان آبرو ( ق ) ، ۷۳ )​
    • 43. پژہ
      "در حقیقت سچی عزت ایک قدرتی چشمے کے موافق ہوتی ہے ، جسے کوئی خس و خاشاک روک نہیں سکتا اور ایک روشن آفتاب کی مانند ہوتی ہے جس کی نورانی شعاعوں کو کوئی پژہ بند نہیں کر سکتا." ( ۱۹۴۷ ، اصلاح حال ، ۳۷ ).​
     
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    PersoLatin said:
    ویژه - special/specific/particular
    Qureshpor said:
    From your list I can relate to ویژہ ...
    Literary Example (Ghalib's Letters - Persian):
    فارسی: این نامہ کہ مہ نگارم ویژہ از بہر دو کار است ...

    اردو ترجمہ: اس خط کے کہ جو آپ کو لکھ رہا ہوں خاص طور پر دو مقاصد ہیں ...

    خطوطِ غالب
     
    فارسی: این نامہ کہ مے نگارم ویژہ از بہر دو کار است ...
     
    Thanks for the correction. (It seems the PDF from which the quote was copied might have spelling errors.)
     
    Alfaaz SaaHib and Qureshpor SaaHib, I believe that Alfaaz SaaHib was right and Qureshpor SaaHib wrong. As far as I can remember, the spelling conventions of Modern Standard Persian, here می, differ from the forms written in Ghalib's times — let alone a spelling one might retroactively envisage as the correct one, here مے. To begin with, Ghalib's writing didn't differentiate between ی and ے as we do today, even in Urdu.
    For می Ghalib used مہ.
     
    But marrish SaaHib, Alfaaz SaaHib wrote مہ and not می. If Ghalib wrote مہ for می, then someone needed to have a few strong words with him! :)
     
    But marrish SaaHib, Alfaaz SaaHib wrote مہ and not می. If Ghalib wrote مہ for می, then someone needed to have a few strong words with him! :)
    In this logic you are right, I should have said "Ghalib used مہ instead of Indo-Persian مے or Modern Standard Persian می".
    One could take the final wavy stroke for the beginning of ی or ے, but I believe that مہ reflected the pronunciation better. I haven't yet had a look at the sources though.
     
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