1. kurumin

    kurumin Senior Member

    salvador bahia brasil, brazilian portuguese & tupy
    Hi everybody.
    Could you help me write a list of regions of Central and South America
    where USTED is used, as an informal pronoun.*

    These are some regions I can think of:

    1. Costa Rica (vos for informal, Usted for both formal and informal, tu inexistent)
    2. Colombia (tu for informal, Usted for both formal and informal, tu regional)

    ---
    *
    Informal = it could be used between close friends, classmates, husband and wife ;)

    Furthern reading:
    http://www.elcastellano.org/artic/voseo.htm
    http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espa%C3%B1ol_cundiboyacense

     
  2. Echie Girl

    Echie Girl New Member

    Spanish, Mexico City
    Bueno pues aqui en Mexico el Usted es una expresion de respeto y muy formal, se utiliza en relaciones entre un superior y su subordinado, entre padres e hijos (cada vez menos, x lo general en Mexico las relaciones entre padres e hijos se hacen cada vez mas informales o de mas confianza como para tutearse), o entre maestro y alumno.
    Pero definitivamente entre amigos, hermanos, compañeros de escuela no se usa para nada. Es demasiado formal.
    El tu puede usarse tambien entre superiores y subordinados, alumnos y maestros cuando en la relación ya hay mas confianza. Tutear no es una falta de respeto, todo depende de la situacion en que las personas se encuentren.

    Espero haberte ayudado
     
  3. Qñerty

    Qñerty Senior Member

    Santiago
    Chile/Español
    Según se explica en [FONT=Times,Times New Roman]
    Alexandra Alvarez y Ximena Barros. 2000. Sistemas en conflicto:​
    las formas de tratamiento en la ciudad de Mérida, Venezuela.​
    Lengua y Habla. Mérida: Universidad de Los Andes


    [/FONT]
    El pronombre preferido en Mérida es usted y el uso de tú parece una acomodación hacia los hablantes de otras regiones. La diferencia entre el uso real y el uso reportado indica una cierta inseguridad lingüística. Puede considerarse la forma de tratamiento usted como un marcador de identidad.​

     
  4. MarX Banned

    Indonesian, Indonesia
    Don't forget that parts of Colombia use vos instead of .
    Juanes, for example, is a voseante.

    As for the use of usted as an informal pronoun, AFAIK, in Chile, little children are sometimes adressed with usted.

    Saludo,


    MarX
     
  5. VivaReggaeton88

    VivaReggaeton88 Senior Member

    Santa Ana, Costa Rica / New York, NY
    US/EEUU; English/Inglés
    En Colombia, como muchos amigos me han dicho, se usa usted informalmente y tú formalmente. El ejemplo que me dio una amiga es que a su abuela le habla con , respectivamente. Colombia es diferente, no sé por qué.
     
  6. Milton Sand

    Milton Sand Senior Member

    Bucaramanga, Colombia
    Español (Colombia)
    Hi!
    Wait! In Colombia "usted" keeps its formal sense, although we also use it to address to our friends an family. But it only happens in the Andes' region. Maybe my region (Santanderes) is where the informal use of usted was deeply-rooted the most, so much that "tu" was considered hypocritical, stiff or telenovela-like until not so long ago. Even some people from conservative towns still think that. But that have been changing very fast.

    "Usted" as a familiar way to address is common in the middle and lower social stratums. But modern moms and dads there are already using "tú" with their children and between themselves.

    We still use "usted" informally between male friends. It must be an male chauvinist ancient habit to not seem affectionate. We even use "usted" when addressing to our pets :D.

    How can you know whether the "usted" is formal or informal? We usually skip the final "d" of "usted" to feel in an familiar mood: "usté", and we blame it on the rapid speech.

    If you ask any Colombian, they will say that "" is informal as well as "vos" in several regions and "usted" is formal. Period. Although they don't realize they use those pronouns in a complext set of ways.

    So, you can come here and use them as you learned them. We'll use them in the standard way too when talking to you, if you are a foreigner. Maybe that's because we don't want you to feel uncomfortable.

    There's one more second person pronoun, but maybe you don't want to talk about it: the gentle "su(s) merced(es)" or, more courious, "sumercesita".

    Bye ;)
     
  7. Get Free Member

    Español, Chile
    El Voseo solo se usa en Argentina y Uruguay de forma masiva. Pero en mi opinion ellos son cuento aparte porque usan una derivación del lenguaje que puede ser considerada como otro idioma, como una variante del español, ya que no solo usan otros pronombres sino que tambien conjugan los verbos de otra forma y tambien pronuncian de otra forma, esto tanto en el lenguaje hablado como escrito.

    Con respecto al Ustedeo, hay que tener cuidado porque en america el Usted en plural (Ustedes) se usa en reemplazo de "vosotros" (2° persona plural que no se usa en america) independientemente de si el trato es formal o informal.

    En el caso del uso del Usted en singular, en Chile se usa en casos en que hay que mostrar respeto (un alumno a un profesor, un sobrino a un tio, o en general cuando hay bastante diferencia de edad entre los interlocutores). En el caso de un superior y un subordinado, se usa Usted solo si hay una diferencia de edad considerable (15 o más años de diferencia dependiendo del caso --la diferencia debe ser mas grande a medida que la edad de los interlocutores aumenta para que el uso del Usted tenga sentido).

    En Chile, tambien se usa el Usted en situaciones en las que no es necesario dirigirse con especial respeto a la otra persona. A saber:
    - Entre dos personas adultas mayores (más de 40 años) de edades similares entre los que no hay ningun nivel de confianza (personas desconocidas por ejemplo).
    - En situaciones de extrema confianza (entre parejas de novios, entre marido y mujer o similares), pero no es mandatorio; es decicion de ellos como dirigirse el uno al otro (sin embargo es mas comun usar "Tu" en vez de "Usted" en este caso).
    - Un adulto (por lo general mujer) dirigiendose a un niño (menor de 10 años) donde hay alguna relacion cercana (de parentesco u otra: un adulto con su sobrino, nieto o con una amistad de sus hijos o nietos; o un profesor con su alumno) como una forma de expresar un trato cariñoso y/o amigable desde el adulto hacia el niño.

    Eso es con respecto al uso del Usted en Chile.
    Saludos.
     
  8. Archicaballero Senior Member

    Colombia/ Spanish
    So far, nobody has mentioned one interesting use of usted. This use occurs in northern Colombia where the costeno dialect is spoken. I have noticed how some speakers who normally use in their daily communicative exchanges, switch to usted when they have heated arguments or disagreements. This switching may indicate anger and somehow establishes some distance among the speakers. When the situation is settled, the use of is reestablished. It’s quite interesting!, isn’t it?
     
  9. Milton Sand

    Milton Sand Senior Member

    Bucaramanga, Colombia
    Español (Colombia)
    Hi!
    Archicaballero is right! But that occurs in every region (at least in Colombia) where tú is used as common familiar way to address. Even in Santander, where "tú" is starting to be used the standard way, when a couple of sweethearts fight, they stop refering to each other as "tú" and use "usted" instead. That sends the message: I'm angry/serious/uncomfortable.

    However, Archicaballero, don't you find interesting that some people (I'm one of those) address to their pets by using "usted"?

    Bye :)
     
  10. VivaReggaeton88

    VivaReggaeton88 Senior Member

    Santa Ana, Costa Rica / New York, NY
    US/EEUU; English/Inglés
    Gracias por corregirme... I have also heard that places in Colombia use "sumercé"... Can you comment on this?
     
  11. Milton Sand

    Milton Sand Senior Member

    Bucaramanga, Colombia
    Español (Colombia)
    Hi!
    "Sumercé", if written like that, is colloquial, it's funny. However that's how it's uttered in rapid speech. The actual term is "su merced", which has the same origin of "usted" (Vsted. or Vuestra Merced = Your Grace/Honor.http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=349294#6) but much more recent. We use it to address with a lot affection and respect but not much formality, for instance, to grammas and grampas, a customer lady. We use it also with irony addressing to somebody we have familiarity with, in order to preach them, give them an obvious advice, etc.
     
  12. Adrian0192

    Adrian0192 Senior Member

    San Jose, Costa Rica
    Costa Rica, Spanish

    In Costa Rica "vos" is almost only use in Cartago wich is a province of The Central Valley, it is better to use "usted" with everybody, whatever I`ll give the rules to conjugate verbs with "vos".

    *Verbs on -ar: like "Tú" but changing the accent

    Amar = Tú amas = Vos amás
    Cantar = Tú cantas = Vos cantás

    *Verbs on -er: like "tú" but changing the accent

    Comer = Tú comes = Vos comés
    Vender = Tú vendes = Vos vendés

    *Verbs on -ir: taking the radical and adding -ís *There are differences wit tú

    Partir = Tú partes = Vos partís
    Sentir = Tu sientes = Vos sentís

    *Verbs with only one syllabe do not change in pronunciation and I AM NOT SURE but I think either in spelling:

    Tú ves = Vos ves (o vés I am not sure)

    Unfortunately, there are some irregular verbs:

    Ser = Tú eres = Vos sos
    Tener = Tú tienes = Vos tenés
     
  13. MarX Banned

    Indonesian, Indonesia
    Thanks for the info, Adrian!

    I personally know four Costa Ricans, and we use vos with each other. In fact, I learned it from them (I got to know some Argentinians afterwards).
    I haven't really asked from which region in Costa Rica they originate, though.

    By the way, tener is regular.
    As far as I know, only ser, ir, and haber have an irregular conjugation for vos in the indicative present:
    Vos sos,
    Vos vas, and
    Vos has ...
    Instead of vos *ses, *is, and *habés (although as far as I know, in Venezuela (Zulia) it's usual to say vos habéis)
    Saludos
     
  14. Adrian0192

    Adrian0192 Senior Member

    San Jose, Costa Rica
    Costa Rica, Spanish
    Well I really don`t understand what you traying to say, but tenés is irregular for me, because in Costa Rica you don`t say vos tienes (remember I am comparing vos and tú) however I think Argentinians do use vos tienes and vos habeís sounds a little extrange for me (I know vosotros habeis but it is only used in Spain), but I have never been in Venezuela, so I don`t know.

    And it`s true haber is also irregular, I forgot it....
     
  15. VivaReggaeton88

    VivaReggaeton88 Senior Member

    Santa Ana, Costa Rica / New York, NY
    US/EEUU; English/Inglés
    No, in Argentina se dice "vos tenés" y en Venezuela se dice "vos tenéis". La conjugación de vos en Venezuela es lo mismo que vosotros en España. Sin embargo en Uruguay a veces se dice "tú tenés y tú decís".
     
  16. MarX Banned

    Indonesian, Indonesia
    The rule of conjugating vos -from the infinitive- is very easy:
    You take away the final -R, replace it with an -S, and add an tilde.
    So:
    amar => amás
    cantar => cantás
    comer => comés
    vender => vendés
    tener => tenés
    poder => podés
    partir => partís
    sentir => sentís
    etc.

    Irregular = not following the general rule.
    Ser, ir, and haber are irregular because you don't say sés, ís, nor habés.

    -conjugation has more irregularities viewed from the infinitive:
    tener => tú tienes (instead of tú tenes)
    poder => tú puedes (instead of podes)
    sentir => tú sientes (instead of sentes)
    Tú amas, cantas, comes, vendes, partes are regular.

    Saludos
     

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