The proper spelling is: Vai de mine!
As I said, Vai is an interjection. So, it hasn't got an exact meaning in modern Romanian, it is just an exclamation word which can define a series of feelings. It depends on the context. It could be, etymologically speaking, related with Latin vae and, therefore, with Italian vai, but it certainly hasn't got the same meaning anymore. Probably, sometime in the past, it meant something like go of me but we can't say that for sure...
Well, for me it is old fashioned. And I don't use it. Perhaps, vai alone is much used than vai de mine. Vai de mine has a high level of complaining which can be annoying. But that's my point of view and my personal remark, I can't tell for sure if that will be indeed a general impression.
So it's not related to vadere? Just as I thought.
No, "woe to the vanquished".
The book you presented as reference is pretty old. Romanian language studies were in early stages at that time...I don’t think Rumanian vai comes from Latin. To me it sounds like the Turkish interjection vay expressing surprise or regret. In oldish [Modern] Greek it is pretty common.
You should look up the word in Lazăr Şăineanu: Influenţa orientală asupră limbei şi culturei române. I-II-III, Bucuresci 1900.
It could actually be the other way around. Maybe Romanian is the true source of the Turkish word?! Unfortunately the Romanian influence on neighbouring languages is horribly underestimated according to many linguists.
robbieI don't think so... But it could be an ancient interjection used in a similar form in many languages.
And wouldn’t you say that the Cumans belonged to a nomadic Turkic tribe?OldAvatar said:
Could we have a couple of names here?robbie_SWE said:
The Persian origin of vay brings the idea of an ancient common indo-european interjection closer to the truth... Doesn't it?And wouldn’t you say that the Cumans belonged to a nomadic Turkic tribe?
I think Şăineanu was well aware of the Cuman connection, but he may not have possessed the linguistic tools to distinguish between Turkish (the Ottoman strand, the prevalent one) and Turkic (the Cuman strand). Some work on this has been done in Hungary where the problem is the same as in Rumanian - only that in Hungary turcological studies are flourishing.
In Rumania it has been much more important to assess the Latin origin of Rumanian and to study, say, French loanwords, than to continue Şăineanu’s work. I see the present debate in this light. “Consulting Aristotle” may be interesting enough, but diving into the linguistic reality of Rumanian would be epistemologically more rewarding. Şăineanu is forgotten and his huge Influenţa orientală ... is a liber rarissimus. I have got a copy of it – but my library is not next to me for the time being.
Could we have a couple of names here?
Caveat: I am not saying that Rumanian vai unequivocally is a Turkish/Turkic loanword in Rumanian. I am now primarily reacting against peremptory statements like “I still consider vai to be a Latin cognate.”
By the way, Turkish vay is considered to be of Persian origin.
Is it still peremptory when many linguists (including a myriad of dictionaries) attest the Romanian word "vai" to be a Latin cognate? I admit that it is a difficult subject to study and discuss, because languages are like living creatures. They breathe, reproduce and adapt themselves to new circumstances. They never acquire a solid form.And wouldn’t you say that the Cumans belonged to a nomadic Turkic tribe?
I think Şăineanu was well aware of the Cuman connection, but he may not have possessed the linguistic tools to distinguish between Turkish (the Ottoman strand, the prevalent one) and Turkic (the Cuman strand). Some work on this has been done in Hungary where the problem is the same as in Rumanian - only that in Hungary turcological studies are flourishing.
In Rumania it has been much more important to assess the Latin origin of Rumanian and to study, say, French loanwords, than to continue Şăineanu’s work. I see the present debate in this light. “Consulting Aristotle” may be interesting enough, but diving into the linguistic reality of Rumanian would be epistemologically more rewarding. Şăineanu is forgotten and his huge Influenţa orientală ... is a liber rarissimus. I have got a copy of it – but my library is not next to me for the time being.
Could we have a couple of names here?
Caveat: I am not saying that Rumanian vai unequivocally is a Turkish/Turkic loanword in Rumanian. I am now primarily reacting against peremptory statements like “I still consider vai to be a Latin cognate.”
By the way, Turkish vay is considered to be of Persian origin.
But the question is interesting don't you think? robbie
