The thread about Austria reminded me of a question I had myself some time ago and never had an answer for. Maybe someone can help me here : What made Venice become al-bundukiyya البندقية in Arabic ?
Any clue ?
Any clue ?
Venice - Venezia - البندقية
- Thread starter cherine
- Start date
Venedig ==> Benedig ==> bendig ==> bendog... bunduq==>bunduqiyya?
Very probable, why not ?
Thanks
Waiting for more opinions
Another thing: Untill few years ago, in Egypt, people used to call the 21 carrat gold : dahab bunduqi دهب بندقى do you think it has anything to do with Venician gold ?!
Very probable, why not ?
Thanks
Waiting for more opinions
Another thing: Untill few years ago, in Egypt, people used to call the 21 carrat gold : dahab bunduqi دهب بندقى do you think it has anything to do with Venician gold ?!
It was just a guessing essay
In Arabic there's no V, but generally the B and the V are somtimes interchangeable between the words moving between Arabic and other languages. As for the e and g, they do exist, don't they?
and the feminine form can either be due to the Italian origin as you said, or to the fact that many city names are feminine ? I'm not sure. I'm just playing the guess game here
In Arabic there's no V, but generally the B and the V are somtimes interchangeable between the words moving between Arabic and other languages. As for the e and g, they do exist, don't they?
and the feminine form can either be due to the Italian origin as you said, or to the fact that many city names are feminine ? I'm not sure. I'm just playing the guess game here
OK, "g" does exist in Egyptian Arabic, but it has to be substituted by "q" or "gh" elsewhere.
About "e" - I am coming to the conclusion that it is actually "a" that does not exist in MSA: People always pronounce "e" where I would expect "a".
The thing about city names being feminine is general? Can I take it as a rule of thumb when I have doubts?
Jana
About "e" - I am coming to the conclusion that it is actually "a" that does not exist in MSA: People always pronounce "e" where I would expect "a".
The thing about city names being feminine is general? Can I take it as a rule of thumb when I have doubts?
Jana
Yes, in general city names, and even country names are feminine. It's a bit rare to find a city of a masculine name. And when i say masculine or feminine I don't mean the name itself as much as I mean the pronoun referring to it (she instead of he) -- for as you should know, there's no (it) in Arabic.
Jana337 said:
How so? The Egyptian "g" corresponds to the standard "j."
About "e" - I am coming to the conclusion that it is actually "a" that does not exist in MSA: People always pronounce "e" where I would expect "a".
The Arabic vowel is actually neither an "a" or an "e" - but somewhere in between. The German "ä" is a good approximation. Also, it can sometimes be pronounced exactly like "a" (think "saara" - to become).
As for Cherine's attempt, I don't think it's unjustifiable. She suggests, among other things, that the "V" became a "b" and the "g" a "q." What's wrong with that?
Sorry, I wasn't clear. The following was in the back of my mind: When you transliterate foreign words - let's take Portugal as an example, you use غ in Eastern Arabic, but you could (don't know whether you do or notelroy said:
) use ج in Egyptian Arabic. Aren't there examples where transliteration in Eastern Arabic differs from Egyptian one? On reflection, nothing.
Just the "g" was bugging me - I didn't get how you can transliterate something using "g" if you don't have it (Cherine preserved "g" in her first step Venedig ==> Benedig). I think I am splitting hairs.Jana
About the g/j in Egyptian Arabic :
It's true, in Egypt we pronounce the ج as g (like in game) Most of the words transliterated with غ originally came to Egypt from the Eastern Arab countries (specially Lebanese and Syrian translators) like the word geography for example جغرافيا Egyptians proununce it Gughrafya, other Arabs say Jughrafya. We (Egyptians i mean) pronounce the J mainly in words of non-Arabic origin; like Jeep, James, John....
So maybe that what made me preserve the (g); for it's the "instinctif" pronounciation for me
It's true, in Egypt we pronounce the ج as g (like in game) Most of the words transliterated with غ originally came to Egypt from the Eastern Arab countries (specially Lebanese and Syrian translators) like the word geography for example جغرافيا Egyptians proununce it Gughrafya, other Arabs say Jughrafya. We (Egyptians i mean) pronounce the J mainly in words of non-Arabic origin; like Jeep, James, John....
So maybe that what made me preserve the (g); for it's the "instinctif" pronounciation for me
I wonder if the Arabic name for Venice just came from the Arabic word for hazelnut. Italy is one of the worlds leading producers of hazelnuts and there are areas around Venice that grow hazelnuts. Maybe, sometime in the past (Middle Ages? Who knows?) there was hazelnut trade between Italy and the Arab World with Venice being the main trade area. And somehow the Arabs just began to refer to this area of Italy as al-bunduqiyya.
I doubt this is the case. Just a wild conjecture. I spent the better half of the day trying to find the etymology, but to no avail.
Just an aside: It probably also has nothing to do with rifles or shotguns.
I doubt this is the case. Just a wild conjecture. I spent the better half of the day trying to find the etymology, but to no avail.
Just an aside: It probably also has nothing to do with rifles or shotguns.
Hi ,
as Jana pointed out the thread is quite interesting! I can't supply a definite origin of name Venezia, but I heard about a possible origin from a vineyard on the site where is now the town (on one of the the ilsands?) so the name could come from a Latin root "Vignaetia " (place of vineyards). In fact there is a latin personal name coming from the same root : "Vignaetius" (vine-dresser) modern italian "Vinicio"
Can this help?
Vittorio
as Jana pointed out the thread is quite interesting! I can't supply a definite origin of name Venezia, but I heard about a possible origin from a vineyard on the site where is now the town (on one of the the ilsands?) so the name could come from a Latin root "Vignaetia " (place of vineyards). In fact there is a latin personal name coming from the same root : "Vignaetius" (vine-dresser) modern italian "Vinicio"
Can this help?
Vittorio
Josh,
Good effort But i don't think hazelnuts were that important as to name a city after them. as for the rifles (which is very smart of you, it didn't occur to me) i don't think they apply either, for the simple reason that bunduqeyya is a very old name, long before the invention of rifles. But nicce try
We didn't find the exact etymology of the Arabic name of Venice (bunduqeyya) in any book. So we hope to guess it through "sound alikes"
Good effort
But i don't think hazelnuts were that important as to name a city after them. as for the rifles (which is very smart of you, it didn't occur to me) i don't think they apply either, for the simple reason that bunduqeyya is a very old name, long before the invention of rifles. But nicce try I'm not sure if this can help, but thanks for the contribution
We didn't find the exact etymology of the Arabic name of Venice (bunduqeyya) in any book. So we hope to guess it through "sound alikes"
Jana337 said:The red steps are unjustified because you do not have V, E, G in Arabic. Therefore, the way is much more direct.
Jana
I humbly think the red steps may be perfectly justified in view of the Andalusian empire which ruled in Spain between the 8th and 11th centuries. "V" is pronounced "b" in Spanish and could easily be the explanation for El Bundukiyya. . .Who knows. . . Culture is the result of "give and take" .
Can you give the possible translations of BUNDUQUEYYA and BENEDIG ? By the way in my post I told you about vineyards, more important than hazelnuts in ancient times.cherine said:I'm not sure if this can help, but thanks for the contribution
We didn't find the exact etymology of the Arabic name of Venice (bunduqeyya) in any book. So we hope to guess it through "sound alikes"
Ciao
Vittorio
Ciao Vittorio,
"Bunduqiyya" means "rifle." As far as I know, that is the only translation of that word.
"Bunduq" means "hazelnuts" ("bunduqa" = "hazelnut"). "Bundiqiyya" could thus mean "related to hazelnuts."
"Benedig" is not a word in Arabic.
"Bunduqiyya" means "rifle." As far as I know, that is the only translation of that word.
"Bunduq" means "hazelnuts" ("bunduqa" = "hazelnut"). "Bundiqiyya" could thus mean "related to hazelnuts."
"Benedig" is not a word in Arabic.
I agree with Jana, this is the most convincing etymology we've reach so far.
You are right JanaJana337 said:Anything helps.
Jana
If the word existed during Roman Empire how can it come from an arabic root? Maybe German, as you say... The actual area of Veneto in ancient times Venetia was really famous as today for very rich vineyards.
Vittorio
Sorry Vittorio, you seem to get it the other way round, we didn't say that Arabic is the origin of the Roman or Italian word. In fact we search for the origin of the Arabic word itself : What made the Italian word Venezia become Bunduqeyya in Arabic ?
If you're interested, the final g in Venedig is not pronounced as g in German.
Final vowels lose their strength in German, so b becomes p, d becomes t, g becomes k etc, and ending "ig" is pronounced (in most dialects and in standard German as German "ich"). It's a palatalised x (ch) sound - it doesn't exist in English or Arabic but it's close to Arabic خ (only soft - palatalised)
Final vowels lose their strength in German, so b becomes p, d becomes t, g becomes k etc, and ending "ig" is pronounced (in most dialects and in standard German as German "ich"). It's a palatalised x (ch) sound - it doesn't exist in English or Arabic but it's close to Arabic خ (only soft - palatalised)
The arabic word for rifle (al-bunnduqiyah) came directly from the word for hazelnut; they attributed the size and shape of the ball (the ammunition) to a hazelnut, and it stuck.
Since Venice was the main supplier of rifles to the Arab world at the time, they were given the name by association. It honestly has nothing to do with any German word, as the arabs didn't have strong relations with the germans during that period of time.
Since Venice was the main supplier of rifles to the Arab world at the time, they were given the name by association. It honestly has nothing to do with any German word, as the arabs didn't have strong relations with the germans during that period of time.
I wonder if the Russian word for hazelnut (фундук - [funduk]) has anything to with it.
I don't think so. Venetians had direct contact with Arabian countries for centuries, so why they needed any German words?
I agree with you. This is the most probable etymology.
It might originate from "el bon doge"
According to websters, "bon" means "magnificent, fine, excellent, generous, genuine, grand, tasty, affable, indulgent, lenient." in Venetian. In Italian the equivalent is "buono" i think.
The doge is like everyone knows is the title of the elected leader of the republic of Venice, and means only that: leader or chef. It comes from the Latin word Dux that gave Duc in French and Duke in English).
So the town of el bon doge, (the magnificent leader) becomes in Arabic Albondoqia.
that's my theory
According to websters, "bon" means "magnificent, fine, excellent, generous, genuine, grand, tasty, affable, indulgent, lenient." in Venetian. In Italian the equivalent is "buono" i think.
The doge is like everyone knows is the title of the elected leader of the republic of Venice, and means only that: leader or chef. It comes from the Latin word Dux that gave Duc in French and Duke in English).
So the town of el bon doge, (the magnificent leader) becomes in Arabic Albondoqia.
that's my theory
Interestingly, Lisaan al-Arab and Taaj al-Aroos refer to it as "بلاد البندقية" and "أرض البندقية" respectively.
I find this the most convincing.
I thought Josh's hypothesis was plausible, too:
On the other hand...
It certainly explains better the phonetic changes. The derivation Venetik(ós) --> Bunduqi would need to explain how that -nd- cluster would come about, and how the front vowel e would change into the back vowel u.
On the other hand...
Not today, but what about centuries ago?
What if it was the fruit which was named after the city?
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While I actually am starting to believe the etymological hypotheses more than the phonological hypotheses, it's probably worth noting that:
*venetik- > *ventik- >*vendik-
is plausible, because after loss of the the second vowel, you can have a forward feature spread of the voicing from /n/ to /t/ changing the cluster *nt > *nd. Forward spreading can be seen in English: *talked> *talkd > [takt] (I'm not using strict IPA because I don't want to involve any problems with Unicode characters. The form "*talked" is starred because I'm positing the 'e' was pronounced and then lost, which is not necessarily the case. I may edit this with a better example of forward spreading when I think of one.)
The vowel change I have no easy explanation for.
I am a late-comer to this thread. Venedig is obviously a pretty valid possibility for 'Bondoqeyya'. I would also like to advance yet another possibility.
The Venetians built 'fondacos', the Italian word for caravanserail, hotel, etc. in Venice as well as in various parts of the Near East. This word is pretty similar to Fondoq in Arabic, which means hotel.
So it could be that 'Bondoqeyya' was derived from Fondaco and attributed to Venice. Thus, when people wanted to say: "we are going to the Venetian caravanserail" in Arabic, they may have said: "Ana zaheb ela'l Fondoqeyya (al-finiseyya), or simply "Ana zaheb elal'l Bondoqeyya".
Any comments?
H a s s a n
P.S. Sorry I did not succeed in inserting Arabic letterings
The Venetians built 'fondacos', the Italian word for caravanserail, hotel, etc. in Venice as well as in various parts of the Near East. This word is pretty similar to Fondoq in Arabic, which means hotel.
So it could be that 'Bondoqeyya' was derived from Fondaco and attributed to Venice. Thus, when people wanted to say: "we are going to the Venetian caravanserail" in Arabic, they may have said: "Ana zaheb ela'l Fondoqeyya (al-finiseyya), or simply "Ana zaheb elal'l Bondoqeyya".
Any comments?
H a s s a n
P.S. Sorry I did not succeed in inserting Arabic letterings
It seems likely that bunduqiyya comes from the German Venedig, but the "rifle" theory is also intriguing. Muslim merchants were customers of the Italian arms industry, to be sure. And when I was in Venice last year I noticed in Saint Mark's a curious effigy of the Madonna on a column near the altar (left side of the nave) with an old musket clamped to the wall beside it! It looked like the sort of thing used in the French Revolution, and it stood vertically next to the Madonna's feet (I took a photo when the guards weren't looking which came out too blurry to be of any use). I never saw a gun in a church before so I couldn't help thinking about the bunduqiyya enigma.
All these theories including my own "rifle" are intriguing but none of them are really satisfying. Why call a town for rifles or hotels or for that matter for a German name for it which may not have existed then?
^In order to find the best answer a long and detailed search should be carried out, especially by checking old dictionnaries and sources. None of the answers will otherwise be ever satisfying. Furthermore, answers at times can be more than one, as many factors can play a role over the centuries.
ibn Hawqal (Sûrat al-ard) quotes a jûn al-Banâdiqin (Gulf of Venetians) at the end of the 10th c. AD, when firearms did not exist. Other writers speak of: al-bunduqiyya = Venice; banâdiqa = Venice; bilâd al banâdiqyyin = land of Venetians, Jun al-banâdiqa = Gulf of Venice, bahr al-banâdiqa = Sea of Venice , halij al-banâdiqa = Channel of Venice. In Arabic dictionaries (Kazimirski, Lane, Barthélemy) you may find: bunduq = hazel; bundûq = bastard; bunduqa = hazelnut, bullet; bunduqîyya = rifle, musket; bunduqî = ducat, piece of thin linen cloth. According to Maria Nallino (Venezia in antichi scrittori arabi, «Annali della facoltà di lingue e letterature straniere di Ca’ Foscari», 2, 1963, 111-120), al-bunduqîyya comes from the name of the inhabitants of the city in Latin (Veneticus) > Byzantine Greek (ouevetikós) > Arabic. The first ducat was coined in 1282 and it too cannot be the source of this word. Take also present that before 1000 AD in Italy the official language was Latin and not Italian and that in 829 the doge changed his title: he was no longer the ruler of the Byzantine province of ‘the Venices’ (plural) (Veneciarum provincie dux) but became the ruler of the Venetians (dux Veneticorum). The only link I found with a hazelnut is that in the Middle Ages (before 1000 AD) Venice was called Olivolo (= such as an olive), from the shape of the island where its bishop lived and its castle stood (cfr. M.P. Pedani, Venezia Porta d'Oriente, Bologna, 2010, p. 243).
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Maybe at the very beginning of rifles they used hazelnuts as ammunition. Hence the name bunduqiya.
I don't know if this source is reliable but it seems to say the same thing bundûq = bastard (bastardo in Italian). They also say "different".
The first primitive firearms were invented about 1250 A.D. in China, about 3 centuries after ibn Hawqal and the first quotation of the word al-bunduqiyya. The Europeans and Arabs (first Mamluks) obtained firearms in the 14th century. The Mamluk sultan Baybars (1260-1277) was called al-Bunduqdârî, from the profession of his master, 'Alâ' ad-Dîn Aydakîn al-Bunduqdâr (d. 1285), a word usually translated as 'slinger' (cfr. also L.A- Mayer, Saracenic Heraldry, Oxford, Clarendon Press, 1933, pp. 13-14, 83-84). In A. De Biberstein-Kazimirski, Dictionnaire arabe-français: contenant toutes les racines de la langue arabe, 1, Paris: Ed. G.P. Maisonnenve, 1960, p. 167, there is written: "bundûq, bâtard, fils naturel." I do not find 'different'.
In his book GUN ISLAND (2019), Amitav Ghosh tells about the Arabic al-Bunduqeyya for Venice, guns, hazelnuts and bullets, the bullets...[were cast precisely in the foundry of the old getto] ghetto in Venice, [the island that was allotted to the Jews... had previously been a foundry where armaments, including bullets, were cast. The word for foundry in the old Venetian dialect was getto and this had become the name of the city’s Jewish settlement. Not only would this settlement become a great centre of Jewish learning, it would also lead to the coining of certain words, of which ghetto was only one.]
The link bundûk / bastard / bâtard could be related with the idea of Jewish discrimination who already occurred in Venice.
Interesting also that banduk / banduka / bonduk are also Hindi, Nepalese and Bengali words for gun.
The link bundûk / bastard / bâtard could be related with the idea of Jewish discrimination who already occurred in Venice.
Interesting also that banduk / banduka / bonduk are also Hindi, Nepalese and Bengali words for gun.