Venice - Venezia - ‎البندقية

cherine

Moderator
Arabic (Egypt).
The thread about Austria reminded me of a question I had myself some time ago and never had an answer for. Maybe someone can help me here : What made Venice become al-bundukiyya البندقية in Arabic ?
Any clue ?
 
  • Jana337

    Senior Member
    čeština
    Here's the German word: Venedig. Does it ring a bell? :)
    More questions of this type, pleeeeeeease! ;)

    Jana
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Venedig ==> Benedig ==> bendig ==> bendog... bunduq==>bunduqiyya?
    Very probable, why not ? :thumbsup:
    Thanks :)
    Waiting for more opinions

    Another thing: Untill few years ago, in Egypt, people used to call the 21 carrat gold : dahab bunduqi دهب بندقى do you think it has anything to do with Venician gold ?!
     

    Jana337

    Senior Member
    čeština
    cherine said:
    Venedig ==> Benedig ==> bendig ==> bendog... bunduq==>bunduqiyya?
    The red steps are unjustified because you do not have V, E, G in Arabic. Therefore, the way is much more direct. :D And the female ending of bunduquiyya may be there just to do justice to the Italian original, Venezia. :)

    Jana
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    It was just a guessing essay :eek:
    In Arabic there's no V, but generally the B and the V are somtimes interchangeable between the words moving between Arabic and other languages. As for the e and g, they do exist, don't they?
    and the feminine form can either be due to the Italian origin as you said, or to the fact that many city names are feminine ? I'm not sure. I'm just playing the guess game here :D
     

    Jana337

    Senior Member
    čeština
    OK, "g" does exist in Egyptian Arabic, but it has to be substituted by "q" or "gh" elsewhere.
    About "e" - I am coming to the conclusion that it is actually "a" that does not exist in MSA: People always pronounce "e" where I would expect "a". :D
    The thing about city names being feminine is general? Can I take it as a rule of thumb when I have doubts?

    Jana
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Yes, in general city names, and even country names are feminine. It's a bit rare to find a city of a masculine name. And when i say masculine or feminine I don't mean the name itself as much as I mean the pronoun referring to it (she instead of he) -- for as you should know, there's no (it) in Arabic.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Jana337 said:
    OK, "g" does exist in Egyptian Arabic, but it has to be substituted by "q" or "gh" elsewhere.
    How so? The Egyptian "g" corresponds to the standard "j."
    About "e" - I am coming to the conclusion that it is actually "a" that does not exist in MSA: People always pronounce "e" where I would expect "a". :D
    The Arabic vowel is actually neither an "a" or an "e" - but somewhere in between. The German "ä" is a good approximation. Also, it can sometimes be pronounced exactly like "a" (think "saara" - to become).

    As for Cherine's attempt, I don't think it's unjustifiable. She suggests, among other things, that the "V" became a "b" and the "g" a "q." What's wrong with that?
     

    Jana337

    Senior Member
    čeština
    elroy said:
    How so? The Egyptian "g" corresponds to the standard "j."
    Sorry, I wasn't clear. The following was in the back of my mind: When you transliterate foreign words - let's take Portugal as an example, you use غ in Eastern Arabic, but you could (don't know whether you do or not :eek:) use ج in Egyptian Arabic. Aren't there examples where transliteration in Eastern Arabic differs from Egyptian one?
    As for Cherine's attempt, I don't think it's unjustifiable. She suggests, among other things, that the "V" became a "b" and the "g" a "q." What's wrong with that?
    On reflection, nothing. :) Just the "g" was bugging me - I didn't get how you can transliterate something using "g" if you don't have it (Cherine preserved "g" in her first step Venedig ==> Benedig). I think I am splitting hairs.

    Jana
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    About the g/j in Egyptian Arabic :
    It's true, in Egypt we pronounce the ج as g (like in game) Most of the words transliterated with غ originally came to Egypt from the Eastern Arab countries (specially Lebanese and Syrian translators) like the word geography for example جغرافيا Egyptians proununce it Gughrafya, other Arabs say Jughrafya. We (Egyptians i mean) pronounce the J mainly in words of non-Arabic origin; like Jeep, James, John....
    So maybe that what made me preserve the (g); for it's the "instinctif" pronounciation for me :)
     

    Josh_

    Senior Member
    U.S., English
    I wonder if the Arabic name for Venice just came from the Arabic word for hazelnut. Italy is one of the worlds leading producers of hazelnuts and there are areas around Venice that grow hazelnuts. Maybe, sometime in the past (Middle Ages? Who knows?) there was hazelnut trade between Italy and the Arab World with Venice being the main trade area. And somehow the Arabs just began to refer to this area of Italy as al-bunduqiyya.

    I doubt this is the case. Just a wild conjecture. I spent the better half of the day trying to find the etymology, but to no avail.

    Just an aside: It probably also has nothing to do with rifles or shotguns.
     

    V52

    Member Emeritus
    Italy Italian
    Hi ,
    as Jana pointed out the thread is quite interesting! I can't supply a definite origin of name Venezia, but I heard about a possible origin from a vineyard on the site where is now the town (on one of the the ilsands?) so the name could come from a Latin root "Vignaetia " (place of vineyards). In fact there is a latin personal name coming from the same root : "Vignaetius" (vine-dresser) modern italian "Vinicio"
    Can this help?
    Vittorio
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Josh,
    Good effort :) But i don't think hazelnuts were that important as to name a city after them. as for the rifles (which is very smart of you, it didn't occur to me) i don't think they apply either, for the simple reason that bunduqeyya is a very old name, long before the invention of rifles. But nicce try :thumbsup:
    I can't supply a definite origin of name Venezia, but I heard about a possible origin from a vineyard on the site where is now the town (on one of the the ilsands?) so the name could come from a Latin root "Vignaetia " (place of vineyards). In fact there is a latin personal name coming from the same root : "Vignaetius" (vine-dresser) modern italian "Vinicio"
    Can this help?
    I'm not sure if this can help, but thanks for the contribution:)
    We didn't find the exact etymology of the Arabic name of Venice (bunduqeyya) in any book. So we hope to guess it through "sound alikes" :D
     

    Douglas

    Senior Member
    USA ENGLISH
    Jana337 said:
    The red steps are unjustified because you do not have V, E, G in Arabic. Therefore, the way is much more direct. :D And the female ending of bunduquiyya may be there just to do justice to the Italian original, Venezia. :)

    Jana
    I humbly think the red steps may be perfectly justified in view of the Andalusian empire which ruled in Spain between the 8th and 11th centuries. "V" is pronounced "b" in Spanish and could easily be the explanation for El Bundukiyya. . .Who knows. . . Culture is the result of "give and take" .
    . .
     

    V52

    Member Emeritus
    Italy Italian
    cherine said:
    I'm not sure if this can help, but thanks for the contribution:)
    We didn't find the exact etymology of the Arabic name of Venice (bunduqeyya) in any book. So we hope to guess it through "sound alikes" :D
    Can you give the possible translations of BUNDUQUEYYA and BENEDIG ? By the way in my post I told you about vineyards, more important than hazelnuts in ancient times.
    Ciao:)
    Vittorio
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Ciao Vittorio,

    "Bunduqiyya" means "rifle." As far as I know, that is the only translation of that word.
    "Bunduq" means "hazelnuts" ("bunduqa" = "hazelnut"). "Bundiqiyya" could thus mean "related to hazelnuts."

    "Benedig" is not a word in Arabic.
     

    V52

    Member Emeritus
    Italy Italian
    Thank you
    I'm checking on the net, and I found that "Venetia" was the name of the whole italian north east aera during Roman Empire, then it became the name of federation of small villages on the islands of the lacoon, does it help?
    Vittorio
     

    Jana337

    Senior Member
    čeština
    Anything helps. :) But it is not enough to establish a convincing link between Venezia and al-bundukiyya. I still believe that it is derived from the German word.

    Jana
     

    V52

    Member Emeritus
    Italy Italian
    Jana337 said:
    Anything helps. :) But it is not enough to establish a convincing link between Venezia and al-bundukiyya. I still believe that it is derived from the German word.

    Jana
    You are right Jana
    If the word existed during Roman Empire how can it come from an arabic root? Maybe German, as you say... The actual area of Veneto in ancient times Venetia was really famous as today for very rich vineyards.
    Vittorio
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Sorry Vittorio, you seem to get it the other way round, we didn't say that Arabic is the origin of the Roman or Italian word. In fact we search for the origin of the Arabic word itself : What made the Italian word Venezia become Bunduqeyya in Arabic ?
     

    RompiAP

    New Member
    Moon, Lunatic
    The term Bunduqiyyah comes from bunduqī ("Venetian"), which is the Arabic version of the Byzantine Greek term βενετικός (venetikós).
    The word بندقية for "rifle" comes from بندقة "bullet" and might well be coincidental.
     

    Anatoli

    Senior Member
    Native: русский (Russian), home country: English
    If you're interested, the final g in Venedig is not pronounced as g in German.

    Final vowels lose their strength in German, so b becomes p, d becomes t, g becomes k etc, and ending "ig" is pronounced (in most dialects and in standard German as German "ich"). It's a palatalised x (ch) sound - it doesn't exist in English or Arabic but it's close to Arabic خ (only soft - palatalised)
     

    sierra17

    New Member
    English/America
    The arabic word for rifle (al-bunnduqiyah) came directly from the word for hazelnut; they attributed the size and shape of the ball (the ammunition) to a hazelnut, and it stuck.

    Since Venice was the main supplier of rifles to the Arab world at the time, they were given the name by association. It honestly has nothing to do with any German word, as the arabs didn't have strong relations with the germans during that period of time.
     

    Anatoli

    Senior Member
    Native: русский (Russian), home country: English
    The arabic word for rifle (al-bunnduqiyah) came directly from the word for hazelnut; they attributed the size and shape of the ball (the ammunition) to a hazelnut, and it stuck.
    ...
    I wonder if the Russian word for hazelnut (фундук - [funduk]) has anything to with it.
     

    Goerzer

    Member
    Italian (North-eastern Italy)
    But it is not enough to establish a convincing link between Venezia and al-bundukiyya. I still believe that it is derived from the German word.
    I don't think so. Venetians had direct contact with Arabian countries for centuries, so why they needed any German words?
    The term Bunduqiyyah comes from bunduqī ("Venetian"), which is the Arabic version of the Byzantine Greek term βενετικός (venetikós).
    I agree with you. This is the most probable etymology.
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    There's a thread about Yunan (Greece), another one about an-nimsa (an-namsa) =Austria.
    You can use the forum's search function to find them, or any other subject you're looking for.
    If your subject of interest isn't there, you can always open a new thread for it (but just one querry per thread please :) )
     

    xoussef

    New Member
    Moroccan
    It might originate from "el bon doge"
    According to websters, "bon" means "magnificent, fine, excellent, generous, genuine, grand, tasty, affable, indulgent, lenient." in Venetian. In Italian the equivalent is "buono" i think.
    The doge is like everyone knows is the title of the elected leader of the republic of Venice, and means only that: leader or chef. It comes from the Latin word Dux that gave Duc in French and Duke in English).
    So the town of el bon doge, (the magnificent leader) becomes in Arabic Albondoqia.

    that's my theory
     

    Mahaodeh

    Senior Member
    Arabic, PA and IA.
    I'm checking on the net, and I found that "Venetia" was the name of the whole italian north east aera during Roman Empire, then it became the name of federation of small villages on the islands of the lacoon, does it help?
    Vittorio
    Interestingly, Lisaan al-Arab and Taaj al-Aroos refer to it as "بلاد البندقية" and "أرض البندقية" respectively.
    The term Bunduqiyyah comes from bunduqī ("Venetian"), which is the Arabic version of the Byzantine Greek term βενετικός (venetikós).
    The word بندقية for "rifle" comes from بندقة "bullet" and might well be coincidental.
    I find this the most convincing.
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    I thought Josh's hypothesis was plausible, too:
    I wonder if the Arabic name for Venice just came from the Arabic word for hazelnut. Italy is one of the worlds leading producers of hazelnuts and there are areas around Venice that grow hazelnuts. Maybe, sometime in the past (Middle Ages? Who knows?) there was hazelnut trade between Italy and the Arab World with Venice being the main trade area. And somehow the Arabs just began to refer to this area of Italy as al-bunduqiyya.
    It certainly explains better the phonetic changes. The derivation Venetik(ós) --> Bunduqi would need to explain how that -nd- cluster would come about, and how the front vowel e would change into the back vowel u.

    On the other hand...
    If you're interested, the final g in Venedig is not pronounced as g in German.
    Not today, but what about centuries ago?
    [...] i don't think hazelnuts were that important as to name a city after them.
    What if it was the fruit which was named after the city? :)
     
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    SaiH

    Senior Member
    Deutsch/Österreich
    I found this:
    « Al-bunduqiyya » البندقية is the Arabic word for a rifle. It is derived from « al-bunduqa » البندقة the hazelnut, as the first bullets shot by the crossbows, before the invention of the firearms, were similar to the fruit of the hazel tree : « al-bunduq » البندق .
    In the Middle East, the first firearms were introduced by Venetians merchants, this is why nowadays Venice is called in Arabic « madînat al-bunduqiyya » مدينة البندقية , the city of the rifle.
    Source
     

    clevermizo

    Senior Member
    English (USA), Spanish
    The derivation Venetik(ós) --> Bunduqi would need to explain how that -nd- cluster would come about, and how the front vowel e would change into the back vowel u.
    While I actually am starting to believe the etymological hypotheses more than the phonological hypotheses, it's probably worth noting that:

    *venetik- > *ventik- >*vendik-

    is plausible, because after loss of the the second vowel, you can have a forward feature spread of the voicing from /n/ to /t/ changing the cluster *nt > *nd. Forward spreading can be seen in English: *talked> *talkd > [takt] (I'm not using strict IPA because I don't want to involve any problems with Unicode characters. The form "*talked" is starred because I'm positing the 'e' was pronounced and then lost, which is not necessarily the case. I may edit this with a better example of forward spreading when I think of one.)

    The vowel change I have no easy explanation for.
     

    HassanE

    New Member
    I am a late-comer to this thread. Venedig is obviously a pretty valid possibility for 'Bondoqeyya'. I would also like to advance yet another possibility.

    The Venetians built 'fondacos', the Italian word for caravanserail, hotel, etc. in Venice as well as in various parts of the Near East. This word is pretty similar to Fondoq in Arabic, which means hotel.

    So it could be that 'Bondoqeyya' was derived from Fondaco and attributed to Venice. Thus, when people wanted to say: "we are going to the Venetian caravanserail" in Arabic, they may have said: "Ana zaheb ela'l Fondoqeyya (al-finiseyya), or simply "Ana zaheb elal'l Bondoqeyya".

    Any comments?

    H a s s a n
    P.S. Sorry I did not succeed in inserting Arabic letterings
     

    lorenzogranada

    Senior Member
    English - mid-Atlantic
    It seems likely that bunduqiyya comes from the German Venedig, but the "rifle" theory is also intriguing. Muslim merchants were customers of the Italian arms industry, to be sure. And when I was in Venice last year I noticed in Saint Mark's a curious effigy of the Madonna on a column near the altar (left side of the nave) with an old musket clamped to the wall beside it! It looked like the sort of thing used in the French Revolution, and it stood vertically next to the Madonna's feet (I took a photo when the guards weren't looking which came out too blurry to be of any use). I never saw a gun in a church before so I couldn't help thinking about the bunduqiyya enigma.
     

    djara

    Senior Member
    Tunisia Arabic
    The Venetians built 'fondacos', the Italian word for caravanserail, hotel, etc. in Venice as well as in various parts of the Near East. This word is pretty similar to Fondoq in Arabic, which means hotel.

    So it could be that 'Bondoqeyya' was derived from Fondaco and attributed to Venice. Thus, when people wanted to say: "we are going to the Venetian caravanserail" in Arabic, they may have said: "Ana zaheb ela'l Fondoqeyya (al-finiseyya), or simply "Ana zaheb elal'l Bondoqeyya".
    I would certainly go in this direction as well. Please see this very interesting discussion of the Greek etymology of the words fondok and bondok, here
    As to Venetian fondacos, here is an interesting article.
     
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    lorenzogranada

    Senior Member
    English - mid-Atlantic
    All these theories including my own "rifle" are intriguing but none of them are really satisfying. Why call a town for rifles or hotels or for that matter for a German name for it which may not have existed then?
     

    alenaro

    Senior Member
    Italian
    ^In order to find the best answer a long and detailed search should be carried out, especially by checking old dictionnaries and sources. None of the answers will otherwise be ever satisfying. Furthermore, answers at times can be more than one, as many factors can play a role over the centuries.
     

    freia lund

    New Member
    Italiano - Italia
    ibn Hawqal (Sûrat al-ard) quotes a jûn al-Banâdiqin (Gulf of Venetians) at the end of the 10th c. AD, when firearms did not exist. Other writers speak of: al-bunduqiyya = Venice; banâdiqa = Venice; bilâd al banâdiqyyin = land of Venetians, Jun al-banâdiqa = Gulf of Venice, bahr al-banâdiqa = Sea of Venice , halij al-banâdiqa = Channel of Venice. In Arabic dictionaries (Kazimirski, Lane, Barthélemy) you may find: bunduq = hazel; bundûq = bastard; bunduqa = hazelnut, bullet; bunduqîyya = rifle, musket; bunduqî = ducat, piece of thin linen cloth. According to Maria Nallino (Venezia in antichi scrittori arabi, «Annali della facoltà di lingue e letterature straniere di Ca’ Foscari», 2, 1963, 111-120), al-bunduqîyya comes from the name of the inhabitants of the city in Latin (Veneticus) > Byzantine Greek (ouevetikós) > Arabic. The first ducat was coined in 1282 and it too cannot be the source of this word. Take also present that before 1000 AD in Italy the official language was Latin and not Italian and that in 829 the doge changed his title: he was no longer the ruler of the Byzantine province of ‘the Venices’ (plural) (Veneciarum provincie dux) but became the ruler of the Venetians (dux Veneticorum). The only link I found with a hazelnut is that in the Middle Ages (before 1000 AD) Venice was called Olivolo (= such as an olive), from the shape of the island where its bishop lived and its castle stood (cfr. M.P. Pedani, Venezia Porta d'Oriente, Bologna, 2010, p. 243).
     
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    aurelien.demarest

    Senior Member
    French
    ibn Hawqal (Sûrat al-ard) quotes a jûn al-Banâdiqin (Gulf of Venetians) at the end of the 10th c. AD, when firearms did not exist. Other writers speak of: al-bunduqiyya = Venice; banâdiqa = Venice; bilâd al banâdiqyyin = land of Venetians, Jun al-banâdiqa = Gulf of Venice, bahr al-banâdiqa = Sea of Venice , halij al-banâdiqa = Channel of Venice. In Arabic dictionaries (Kazimirski, Lane, Barthélemy) you may find: bunduq = hazel; bundûq = bastard; bunduqa = hazelnut, bullet; bunduqîyya = rifle, musket; bunduqî = ducat, piece of thin linen cloth. According to Maria Nallino (Venezia in antichi scrittori arabi, «Annali della facoltà di lingue e letterature straniere di Ca’ Foscari», 2, 1963, 111-120), al-bunduqîyya comes from the name of the inhabitants of the city in Latin (Veneticus) > Byzantine Greek (ouevetikós) > Arabic. The first ducat was coined in 1282 and it too cannot be the source of this word. Take also present that before 1000 AD in Italy the official language was Latin and not Italian and that in 829 the doge changed his title: he was no longer the ruler of the Byzantine province of ‘the Venices’ (plural) (Veneciarum provincie dux) but became the ruler of the Venetians (dux Veneticorum). The only link I found with a hazelnut is that in the Middle Ages (before 1000 AD) Venice was called Olivolo (= such as an olive), from the shape of the island where its bishop lived and its castle stood (cfr. M.P. Pedani, Venezia Porta d'Oriente, Bologna, 2010, p. 243).
    I don't know if this source is reliable but it seems to say the same thing bundûq = bastard (bastardo in Italian). They also say "different".
     

    freia lund

    New Member
    Italiano - Italia
    The first primitive firearms were invented about 1250 A.D. in China, about 3 centuries after ibn Hawqal and the first quotation of the word al-bunduqiyya. The Europeans and Arabs (first Mamluks) obtained firearms in the 14th century. The Mamluk sultan Baybars (1260-1277) was called al-Bunduqdârî, from the profession of his master, 'Alâ' ad-Dîn Aydakîn al-Bunduqdâr (d. 1285), a word usually translated as 'slinger' (cfr. also L.A- Mayer, Saracenic Heraldry, Oxford, Clarendon Press, 1933, pp. 13-14, 83-84). In A. De Biberstein-Kazimirski, Dictionnaire arabe-français: contenant toutes les racines de la langue arabe, 1, Paris: Ed. G.P. Maisonnenve, 1960, p. 167, there is written: "bundûq, bâtard, fils naturel." I do not find 'different'.
     
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