The red steps are unjustified because you do not have V, E, G in Arabic. Therefore, the way is much more direct. And the female ending of bunduquiyya may be there just to do justice to the Italian original, Venezia.cherine said:Venedig ==> Benedig ==> bendig ==> bendog... bunduq==>bunduqiyya?
How so? The Egyptian "g" corresponds to the standard "j."Jana337 said:OK, "g" does exist in Egyptian Arabic, but it has to be substituted by "q" or "gh" elsewhere.
The Arabic vowel is actually neither an "a" or an "e" - but somewhere in between. The German "ä" is a good approximation. Also, it can sometimes be pronounced exactly like "a" (think "saara" - to become).About "e" - I am coming to the conclusion that it is actually "a" that does not exist in MSA: People always pronounce "e" where I would expect "a".
Sorry, I wasn't clear. The following was in the back of my mind: When you transliterate foreign words - let's take Portugal as an example, you use غ in Eastern Arabic, but you could (don't know whether you do or not ) use ج in Egyptian Arabic. Aren't there examples where transliteration in Eastern Arabic differs from Egyptian one?elroy said:How so? The Egyptian "g" corresponds to the standard "j."
On reflection, nothing. Just the "g" was bugging me - I didn't get how you can transliterate something using "g" if you don't have it (Cherine preserved "g" in her first step Venedig ==> Benedig). I think I am splitting hairs.As for Cherine's attempt, I don't think it's unjustifiable. She suggests, among other things, that the "V" became a "b" and the "g" a "q." What's wrong with that?
I'm not sure if this can help, but thanks for the contributionI can't supply a definite origin of name Venezia, but I heard about a possible origin from a vineyard on the site where is now the town (on one of the the ilsands?) so the name could come from a Latin root "Vignaetia " (place of vineyards). In fact there is a latin personal name coming from the same root : "Vignaetius" (vine-dresser) modern italian "Vinicio"
Can this help?
I humbly think the red steps may be perfectly justified in view of the Andalusian empire which ruled in Spain between the 8th and 11th centuries. "V" is pronounced "b" in Spanish and could easily be the explanation for El Bundukiyya. . .Who knows. . . Culture is the result of "give and take" .Jana337 said:The red steps are unjustified because you do not have V, E, G in Arabic. Therefore, the way is much more direct. And the female ending of bunduquiyya may be there just to do justice to the Italian original, Venezia.
Can you give the possible translations of BUNDUQUEYYA and BENEDIG ? By the way in my post I told you about vineyards, more important than hazelnuts in ancient times.cherine said:I'm not sure if this can help, but thanks for the contribution
We didn't find the exact etymology of the Arabic name of Venice (bunduqeyya) in any book. So we hope to guess it through "sound alikes"
You are right JanaJana337 said:Anything helps. But it is not enough to establish a convincing link between Venezia and al-bundukiyya. I still believe that it is derived from the German word.
I wonder if the Russian word for hazelnut (фундук - [funduk]) has anything to with it.The arabic word for rifle (al-bunnduqiyah) came directly from the word for hazelnut; they attributed the size and shape of the ball (the ammunition) to a hazelnut, and it stuck.
I don't think so. Venetians had direct contact with Arabian countries for centuries, so why they needed any German words?But it is not enough to establish a convincing link between Venezia and al-bundukiyya. I still believe that it is derived from the German word.
I agree with you. This is the most probable etymology.The term Bunduqiyyah comes from bunduqī ("Venetian"), which is the Arabic version of the Byzantine Greek term βενετικός (venetikós).
Interestingly, Lisaan al-Arab and Taaj al-Aroos refer to it as "بلاد البندقية" and "أرض البندقية" respectively.I'm checking on the net, and I found that "Venetia" was the name of the whole italian north east aera during Roman Empire, then it became the name of federation of small villages on the islands of the lacoon, does it help?
I find this the most convincing.The term Bunduqiyyah comes from bunduqī ("Venetian"), which is the Arabic version of the Byzantine Greek term βενετικός (venetikós).
The word بندقية for "rifle" comes from بندقة "bullet" and might well be coincidental.
It certainly explains better the phonetic changes. The derivation Venetik(ós) --> Bunduqi would need to explain how that -nd- cluster would come about, and how the front vowel e would change into the back vowel u.I wonder if the Arabic name for Venice just came from the Arabic word for hazelnut. Italy is one of the worlds leading producers of hazelnuts and there are areas around Venice that grow hazelnuts. Maybe, sometime in the past (Middle Ages? Who knows?) there was hazelnut trade between Italy and the Arab World with Venice being the main trade area. And somehow the Arabs just began to refer to this area of Italy as al-bunduqiyya.
Not today, but what about centuries ago?If you're interested, the final g in Venedig is not pronounced as g in German.
What if it was the fruit which was named after the city?[...] i don't think hazelnuts were that important as to name a city after them.
Source« Al-bunduqiyya » البندقية is the Arabic word for a rifle. It is derived from « al-bunduqa » البندقة the hazelnut, as the first bullets shot by the crossbows, before the invention of the firearms, were similar to the fruit of the hazel tree : « al-bunduq » البندق .
In the Middle East, the first firearms were introduced by Venetians merchants, this is why nowadays Venice is called in Arabic « madînat al-bunduqiyya » مدينة البندقية , the city of the rifle.
While I actually am starting to believe the etymological hypotheses more than the phonological hypotheses, it's probably worth noting that:The derivation Venetik(ós) --> Bunduqi would need to explain how that -nd- cluster would come about, and how the front vowel e would change into the back vowel u.
I would certainly go in this direction as well. Please see this very interesting discussion of the Greek etymology of the words fondok and bondok, hereThe Venetians built 'fondacos', the Italian word for caravanserail, hotel, etc. in Venice as well as in various parts of the Near East. This word is pretty similar to Fondoq in Arabic, which means hotel.
So it could be that 'Bondoqeyya' was derived from Fondaco and attributed to Venice. Thus, when people wanted to say: "we are going to the Venetian caravanserail" in Arabic, they may have said: "Ana zaheb ela'l Fondoqeyya (al-finiseyya), or simply "Ana zaheb elal'l Bondoqeyya".
I don't know if this source is reliable but it seems to say the same thing bundûq = bastard (bastardo in Italian). They also say "different".ibn Hawqal (Sûrat al-ard) quotes a jûn al-Banâdiqin (Gulf of Venetians) at the end of the 10th c. AD, when firearms did not exist. Other writers speak of: al-bunduqiyya = Venice; banâdiqa = Venice; bilâd al banâdiqyyin = land of Venetians, Jun al-banâdiqa = Gulf of Venice, bahr al-banâdiqa = Sea of Venice , halij al-banâdiqa = Channel of Venice. In Arabic dictionaries (Kazimirski, Lane, Barthélemy) you may find: bunduq = hazel; bundûq = bastard; bunduqa = hazelnut, bullet; bunduqîyya = rifle, musket; bunduqî = ducat, piece of thin linen cloth. According to Maria Nallino (Venezia in antichi scrittori arabi, «Annali della facoltà di lingue e letterature straniere di Ca’ Foscari», 2, 1963, 111-120), al-bunduqîyya comes from the name of the inhabitants of the city in Latin (Veneticus) > Byzantine Greek (ouevetikós) > Arabic. The first ducat was coined in 1282 and it too cannot be the source of this word. Take also present that before 1000 AD in Italy the official language was Latin and not Italian and that in 829 the doge changed his title: he was no longer the ruler of the Byzantine province of ‘the Venices’ (plural) (Veneciarum provincie dux) but became the ruler of the Venetians (dux Veneticorum). The only link I found with a hazelnut is that in the Middle Ages (before 1000 AD) Venice was called Olivolo (= such as an olive), from the shape of the island where its bishop lived and its castle stood (cfr. M.P. Pedani, Venezia Porta d'Oriente, Bologna, 2010, p. 243).