verb vs participle

Discussion in 'עברית (Hebrew)' started by dukaine, Dec 4, 2012.

  1. dukaine Senior Member

    Richmond, VA
    English - American
    Is there a rule about when you use the participle form and when you use the conjugated verb form? For example, with words like להעדר and סבך (pual root) - it seems that using the participle form makes the most sense, but Hebrew has both forms.
  2. airelibre

    airelibre Senior Member

    English - London
    I don't understand what you mean. Are they not the same thing?
  3. dukaine Senior Member

    Richmond, VA
    English - American
    Well, in English, "He arrives" is in verb form, and "He is arriving" is in participle form. For a verb like "lehe'ader", which means to be absent or missing, we would only use absent as an adjective in English. In Hebrew, it seems that there is a verb form and adjective form for absent. I was wondering if there were specific cases where each is used.
  4. airelibre

    airelibre Senior Member

    English - London
    Perhaps this may help (the part about uses of participles):

    Tell me if I still haven't understand your question but אני נעדר means I am missing and I am absent (verb and adjective), while נעדרתי can only be a verb in past tense - I was missing and הייתי נעדר could perhaps be I was absent but I doubt that is ever used.

    However, part of me is also saying that missing in English, in the sense of absent is an adjective, rather than a verb, despite its -ing ending. You cannot say he missed, he misses in the sense of he is/was absent.
  5. dukaine Senior Member

    Richmond, VA
    English - American
    Well, there are words like "leaxer", where the very conjugation is "meaxer", while the adjective is "meuxar". If a person is late, which do you use? Is it interchangeable?
  6. ystab Senior Member

    You have a mistake here. מאחר is both a verb conjugation and a participle, for example הוא מאחר בחמש דקות and הוא מאחר כרוני. The word מאוחר is in a different binyan - pu'al - and can be used also as both verb conjugation (הפגישה מאוחרת לשעה שמונה - the meeting is postponed to 8:00 o'clock) and participle (כבר מאוחר - it's already late). I think the confusion stems from the double meaning of the verb איחר: be late and postpone (though דחה is far more used in this meaning).
  7. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    I guess the confusion arises also from English using "late" with two different meanings. "I'm late" is different from "it's late".
  8. dukaine Senior Member

    Richmond, VA
    English - American
    I guess what I'm asking is referring to what airelibre mentioned. Is lihiyot + adj ever used for past and future tense verbs that are inherently passive?
  9. trigel Senior Member

    English - US, Korean
    When you use היה מופתע whether it means "he was surprised" or "he would be/have been surprised" has to be deduced from context, right?
  10. arielipi Senior Member

    Correct my sir!
    although, הוא היה מופתע is he would have been, and without the oged its he was surprised.
  11. trigel Senior Member

    English - US, Korean
    haya mufta = he was/would be surprised,
    hu haya mufta = he'd be surprised,
    hu mufta = he was/is surprised
    X haya mufta (with appropriate agreement) = X would be surprised
    X mufta (with appropriate agreement) = X was/is surprised?
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2012
  12. origumi Senior Member

    Too many example may confuse here. In Modern Hebrew (like some other Semitic languages) participle and present tense look the same. Consequently, the same word may be treated as present tense verb, or as participle, or as noun. Sometimes the content tells which, in other cases it remains open.

    I believe that the same is correct for Biblical Hebrew, but this may lead to out-of-scope historical debate so put it aside. In pre-Biblical times this may have been different.
  13. C_J Member

    There is some confusion here. If using the participle to modify a noun: "The missing boy" vs "The boy is/was/will be missing", the Hebrew counterparts will be "הילד הנעדר" and "הילד נעדר/נעדר/יעדר" respectively.

    All three "passive" binyanim (nif'al pu'al and huf'al) have future and past forms, so there is no need to create constructs with "להיות" as in English "was missing/will be missing"

    Historically, Hebrew only hase past and future tenses. What we nowadays call "present tense" is actually called "צורת הבינוני" or "צורת הביניים". It can be used instead of verb, to modify a noun, to denote occupation.
    Unlike future/past tenses, בינוני conjugations do not represent person (אני/אתה/הוא שומר but אני] אשמור,[אתה] שמרת]), and you can use "אין" for negation (אינני נוהג לאחר but not אינני איחרתי or אינני אאחר).

    With the above in mind, the word "שומר" can mean "a guard (noun)", "he/"male I"/"male you" guards/is guarding (verb)", "saver/keeper/holder (participle - as in "'שומר אחי" "שומר מקום").
    You should use the appropriate form depending on the indended meaning.

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