Verbs and "in order to"

Jawel7

Senior Member
Turkish
Hello my friends.

I would like to ask an unusual, perhaps, unnecessary question.

How can I read the following sentences?

1-) Don't forget to find new topics in order to discuss with me.

1.1 -> [Don't forget to find new topics] [in order to discuss with me].

1.2 -> [Don't forget] [to find new topics in order to discuss with me].

2-) Try to make a surprise in order to make me happy.

2.1 -> [Try to make a surprise] [in order to make me happy]

2.2 -> [Try] [to make a surprise in order to make me happy]

Actually the main question is what "in order to" refers to? The first verb or the second verb?
I think it always refers to the first verb.
So 1.1 and 2.1 are correct forms.

How about your opinions? Thank you very much.
 
  • PaulQ

    Senior Member
    UK
    English - England
    1-) Don't forget to find new topics in order to discuss with me.:cross:
    1a) [Don't forget to find new topics] [in order to discuss them with me.]:tick:
    1b) Don't forget [to find new topics in order to discuss with me.]:tick:

    2-) [Try to make create a surprise] [in order to make me happy.]
     

    Jawel7

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    1-) Don't forget to find new topics in order to discuss with me.:cross:
    1a) [Don't forget to find new topics] [in order to discuss them with me.]:tick:
    1b) Don't forget [to find new topics in order to discuss with me.]:tick:

    2-) [Try to make create a surprise] [in order to make me happy.]
    Could you please tell me why you put a cross in the first sentence?
    Isn't it enough to say "In order to discuss with me"?
    Because it can be easily understood from the context that we will discuss new topics, not anything else.
    @PaulQ
     

    matiasmab21

    New Member
    Español English
    Could you please tell me why you put a cross in the first sentence?
    Isn't it enough to say "In order to discuss with me"?
    Because it can be easily understood from the context that we will discuss new topics, not anything else.
    @PaulQ
    "Discuss" is a transitive verb so it must ALWAYS be followed by an object! That's why that sentence was incorrect.

    Have a nice day,

    Matt
     

    Forero

    Senior Member
    In "Don't forget to find new topics to discuss with me", the infinitive phrase is like a relative clause. The sentence means "Don't forget to find new topics that you can discuss with me", and the infinitive phrase/clause is an essential qualifier modifying "topics".

    But in "Don't forget to find new topics in order to discuss them with me", the infinitive is part of an adverbial phrase that gives a purpose for finding new topics.
     

    Jawel7

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    In "Don't forget to find new topics to discuss with me", the infinitive phrase is like a relative clause. The sentence means "Don't forget to find new topics that you can discuss with me", and the infinitive phrase/clause is an essential qualifier modifying "topics".

    But in "Don't forget to find new topics in order to discuss them with me", the infinitive is part of an adverbial phrase that gives a purpose for finding new topics.
    Well, how about this one?
    "Don't forget to find new topics about religions to discuss with me."

    Does "to discuss with me" still refer to "new topics" and is it still an infinitive phrase like a relative clause? @PaulQ @Forero
     

    Jawel7

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    Yes. ("Topics about religions" is awkward phrasing, but it makes sense.)
    So, it must be also correct.
    "Don't forget to find new topics about religions to discuss them with me."
    "to discuss them with me" is not an infinitive phrase referring to "new topics" anymore. It became like "in order to" giving a purpose. Right? @Forero
     

    PaulQ

    Senior Member
    UK
    English - England
    No.

    "Do......n't...forget {to find new topics about religions to discuss them with me.}"
    Verb1..adv...verb2.{........................noun phrase as object...........................}
    We could say:

    "Don't forget..........{........................................this....................................}"
     

    Jawel7

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    No.

    "Do......n't...forget {to find new topics about religions to discuss them with me.}"
    Verb1..adv...verb2.{........................noun phrase as object...........................}
    We could say:

    "Don't forget..........{........................................this....................................}"
    But you said that "Don't forget to find new topics in order to discuss them with me." was okay.
    If it is okay, "Don't forget to find new topics to discuss them with me." should be okay too.
    Because "In order to" and "to" can be used in each other's place/position. for "to" giving a purpose, "In order to" is just the short form of "to".
     

    PaulQ

    Senior Member
    UK
    English - England
    But you said that "Don't forget to find new topics in order to discuss them with me." was okay.
    Yes, that's right - do you see a difference between "to discuss" and "in order to discuss"?
    Because "In order to" and "to" can be used in each other's place/position.
    This is not true in all cases is it?

    Is this correct:

    "Don't forget in order to find new topics about religions to discuss with me."?
     

    Jawel7

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    Yes, that's right - do you see a difference between "to discuss" and "in order to discuss"?
    This is not true in all cases is it?

    Is this correct:

    "Don't forget in order to find new topics about religions to discuss with me."?
    No, It isn't.
    I was trying to say that they can be used in each other's place when they give a purpose or answer the question "why".

    "Don't forget to find new topics [in order to discuss them with me]" is okay.
    But In my opinion, we can delete "in order to" and add just "to".
    "Don't forget to find new topics [to discuss them with me]"
    Because "to" can also give a purpose.

    Some examples;
    I will come to Istanbul to see you / I will come to Istanbul in order to see you.
    We can talk about our lifestyles to get more familiar with each other. /In order to get more familiar with each other.

    So you understand me. (Native one is you, not me :)) )
     

    PaulQ

    Senior Member
    UK
    English - England
    No, It isn't.
    Good.
    In "Don't forget to find new topics about religions to discuss with me." the function of "to discuss" is an adjectival phrase - it is not introducing a clause of reason; it does not mean "in order to discuss."

    Let us make the sentence simpler:

    "Don't forget to find new topics to discuss." to discuss modifies "topics" - Q: What sort of topics? A: Topics to discuss.

    "In order to verb" introduces an adverbial phrase.

     

    Jawel7

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    Good.
    In "Don't forget to find new topics about religions to discuss with me." the function of "to discuss" is an adjectival phrase - it is not introducing a clause of reason; it does not mean "in order to discuss."

    Let us make the sentence simpler:

    "Don't forget to find new topics to discuss." to discuss modifies "topics" - Q: What sort of topics? A: Topics to discuss.

    "In order to verb" introduces an adverbial phrase.
    Okay, I can understand you. I just wanted to mention the possibility for "to" to be accepted as an adverbial like "in order to".
    (I will buy) (some coffee to drink with you).
    or
    (I will buy some coffee) (to drink them with you)
    Because technically/ theoretically, as I said before, "to do" can be considered as either an infinitive phrase(adjective) or an adverbial like "in order to".
    However, I can agree with you, if you say that when "to do" makes sense as an infinitive adjective phrase, we almost always consider it as an infinitive phrase(adjectival). @PaulQ
     
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