viel /einige /alle / beide / sämtlich / wenig (inflection)

Dupon

Senior Member
Chinese
When viel/einige/all/beide/sämtilch/wenig is before a "singualr Nomen", how it changes? Does it change like "dieses" or strong change like an adjective?

As you know, the only difference between "dieses" and "strong change" is on the "Genitiv" of "Maskulin" and Neutrum":
Strong change:
Genetiv Maskulin: -n(vielen+singualr Nomen)
Genetiv Neutrum: -n(vielen+singualr Nomen)

Change like "dieses"
Genetiv Maskulin: -s(vieles+singualr Nomen)
Genetiv Neutrum: -s(vieles+singualr Nomen)

I am really confused on this. Some books tell me they change like "dieses". But on the website canoonet, I found they stong change like adjective. (Only "all" and "manch" can change both like "dieses" and adjective)

Thank you!
 
  • Gernot Back

    Senior Member
    German - Germany
    When viel/einige/all/beide/sämtilch/wenig is before a "singualr Nomen", how it changes? Does it change like "dieses" or strong change like an adjective?

    Alle, beide, sämtliche behave like a definite article, since they denominate definite quantities.

    Viele, einige, wenige denominate indefinite quantities, so they behave like the indefinite article.

    Manch~ is an exception as an indefinite quantity and behaves like solch~ and welch~: When used with an adjective ending themselves, they behave like the definite article. When used without an adjective ending, they behave like a zero-article, so the following adjective takes the ending of the demonstrative article.
     

    Dupon

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    Alle, beide, sämtliche behave like a definite article, since they denominate definite quantities. --- Like "dieses"? But how about "Genitiv" of "Maskulin" and Neutrum", is it wrong on canoonet?
    ,
    Viele, einige, wenige denominate indefinite quantities, so they behave like the indefinite article. --- Do you mean then do not storng change like adjective?

    Manch~ is an exception as an indefinite quantity and behaves like solch~ and welch~: When used with an adjective ending themselves, they behave like the definite article. When used without an adjective ending, they behave like a zero-article, so the following adjective takes the ending of the demonstrative article.
     

    Hutschi

    Senior Member
    There is an additional property. "Viel" (and the most of the others) depends on the fact that some nouns represent countable amounts and some non-countable amounts.

    Example "Butter" (non-countable) requires "viel" and singular - viel Butter - in case it is indefinite, and "viele" - die viele Butter - in case it is definite.

    In case it is countable it requires plural: indefinite: viele Stücke (Butter) - definite: die vielen Stücke (Butter)

    Compare: viel Sand, der viele Sand, viele Sandkörner, den vielen Sandkörnern.

    The declination follows the respective patterns.
     
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    Dupon

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    Hutschi, thanks for your explain, but how about their change in different "Genus" and "Kasus"? I am confused with the result on canoonet....
     

    Gernot Back

    Senior Member
    German - Germany
    As I see, they all strong change like adjective...So I am confused...
    I would say: all of these words are adjectives*, so of course they are inflected like adjectives; except for viel, wenig and manch, which are not (always) inflected in the singular.

    What I was explaining, was sth. else on the other hand: What, if another adjective is following these adjectives?

    Indefinite quantities behave like a zero-article(there is no article, so the second adjective takes the strong declension ending).
    • wenig fettarme Milch(N,A), wenig fettarmer Milch(D,G)
    • viel neues Zubehör(N,A), viel neuem Zubehör(D), viel neuen Zubehörs(G)
    • einiges böses Blut(N,A), einigem bösem Blut oder einigem bösen Blut(D), einigen bösen Blutes(G)


    Definite quantities behave like the definite article, so the following adjective takes the weak declension endings:

    • aller weiße Zucker(N), allen weißen Zucker(A), allem weißen Zucker(D), allen weißen Zuckers(G)
    • sämtliche gute Butter(N,A), sämtlicher guten Butter(D,G)
    • beides harte Brot(N,A), beidem harten Brot(D), beiden harten Brotes(G)


    Manch behaves like solch and welch (depending on a preceding ending with manch the following adjective takes the weak or strong ending):

    • manch guter Gedanke(N), manch guten Gedanken(A), manch gutem Gedanken(D), manch guten Gedankens(G)
    • mancher gute Gedanke(N), manchen guten Gedanken(A), manchem guten Gedanken(D), manchen guten Gedankes(G)


    Some people use these quantifiers differently, though:

    http://www.canoo.net/services/OnlineGrammar/Wort/Adjektiv/Deklinationstyp/Schwankend.html#Anchor-beide-35882

    However, you definitely don't make a mistake, if you go by my rule.

    *Although some grammarians would dispute this in the case of alle, beide, einige, and call them "pronouns".
     

    Hutschi

    Senior Member
    Hutschi, thanks for your explain, but how about their change in different "Genus" and "Kasus"? I am confused with the result on canoonet....
    I will give a list:

    Nominativ: viel Sand - der viele Sand - but: die vielen Sandkörner - viele Sandkörner
    Genitiv: vielen/vieles Sandes - des vielen Sandes - der vielen Sandkörner - vieler Sandkörner
    Dativ: vielem Sand - dem vielen Sand - den vielen Sandkörnern - vielen Sandkörnern
    Akkusativ: vielen Sand - den vielen Sand - den vielen Sandkörnern - vielen Sandkörnern

    Note: I mean the countable "Korn" and the non-countable Sand here.
    There is also the word "Korn" as non-countable word, but with another meaning: Getreide, and the plural "die Sande" exist, but also with another meaning than Sand, it means "die Sandarten".

    I am not sure about the genitive, I think both "vieles Sandes" and "vielen Sandes" are correct.

    der viele Sand - das viele Brot - die viele Milch
    des vielen Sandes - des vielen Brotes - der vielen Milch
    dem vielen Sand - dem vielen Brot - der vielen Milch
    den vielen Sand - das viele Brot - die viele Milch

    (Note: we have "die vielen Brote" as countable plural, das Brot has two meaning, it may be countable: a bread, or non-countable: bread.)
     
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