Warp and Weft / Urdimbre y Trama

[Rainbowlight]

Hello everyone,

In Spanish, both words, urdimbre (warp) y trama (weft) can function as verbs as well. Curiously, both "tramar" y "urdir" can be used to refer to the notion of plotting, scheming, intriguing, conjuring, machinating, conspiring and, in a general sense, tracing a masterplan with an agenda that is usually concealed.

I would like to know if this double meaning also happens in your language.

Thanks for your time and help.

 

[Panceltic]

I had to google these words in Slovenian because I have no idea about weaving!

Apparently, the warp is called osnova (which is just the regular word for a basis/foundation) and the weft is votek. The corresponding verbs are osnovati (to base, to found) and vtkati (to weave into). They have no plotting/conspiring connotations at all.

 

[Rainbowlight]

I had to google these words in Slovenian because I have no idea about weaving!

Apparently, the warp is called osnova (which is just the regular word for a basis/foundation) and the weft is votek. The corresponding verbs are osnovati (to base, to found) and vtkati (to weave into). They have no plotting/conspiring connotations at all.

Thanks for your quick and informative response. : )

 

[apmoy70]

In Greek warp is «στημόνι» [s̠t̠iˈmo̞ni] (neut.) < Koine neuter diminutive «στημόνιον» /stɛːˈmonion/ of the Classical masculine noun «στήμων» /ˈstɛːmɔːn/ --> warp in the upright loom, a deverbal from the athematic verb «ἵστημι» /ˈhistɛːmi/ --> to stand, set, stand upright (among others).

Weft is «υφάδι» [iˈfaði] (neut.) < Koine neuter diminutive «ὑφάδιον» /hyˈpʰɐdion/ < Classical feminine noun «ὑφή» /hyˈpʰɛː/ --> web, a deverbal from the Classical verb «ὑφαίνω» /hyˈpʰɐi̯nɔː/ --> to weave (PIE *webʰ).

The verb associated with both is «υφαίνω» [iˈfe̞no̞] < Classical v. «ὑφαίνω» (see previously).

For plotting/conspiring the verb is «εξυφαίνω» [e̞k͡s̠iˈfe̞no̞] which is the compound of «υφαίνω» and the prefix/preposition «ἐκ» /ek/ (which becomes «ἐξ» /ek͡s/ when the next word begins with a vowel) < Classical v. «ἐξυφαίνω» /ek͡syˈpʰɐi̯nɔː/ --> lit. to finish web, metaph. to plot, conspire.

 

[Rainbowlight]

In Greek warp is «στημόνι» [s̠t̠iˈmo̞ni] (neut.) < Koine neuter diminutive «στημόνιον» /stɛːˈmonion/ of the Classical masculine noun «στήμων» /ˈstɛːmɔːn/ --> warp in the upright loom, a deverbal from the athematic verb «ἵστημι» /ˈhistɛːmi/ --> to stand, set, stand upright (among others).

Weft is «υφάδι» [iˈfaði] (neut.) < Koine neuter diminutive «ὑφάδιον» /hyˈpʰɐdion/ < Classical feminine noun «ὑφή» /hyˈpʰɛː/ --> web, a deverbal from the Classical verb «ὑφαίνω» /hyˈpʰɐi̯nɔː/ --> to weave (PIE *webʰ).

The verb associated with both is «υφαίνω» [iˈfe̞no̞] < Classical v. «ὑφαίνω» (see previously).

Thank you very much. I take it there's no other meaning related to scheming or plotting against someone/something. Am I right?

 

[apmoy70]

Thank you very much. I take it there's no other meaning related to scheming or plotting against someone/something. Am I right?

Apologies, I edited my previous post while you were writing an answer

 

[Penyafort]

In Catalan, and I'd say in French and Italian too, it's the same as in Spanish, with both being used as verbs for plotting.

Nouns:
ordit or ordidura
trama

Verbs:
ordir
tramar

Both verbs are seen as synonyms of maquinar 'to plot, to scheme'.

This is interesting because if it's the same in all of them, one would expect a Latin origin for the common meaning. But I haven't found an extended meaning of it in Classical Latin, so it might have developed at an early stage of Vulgar Latin.

 

[Welsh_Sion]

I am no expert on weaving nor on the figurative meanings in my two main languages, but GPC tells me that there is (y)stof ac anwe for the meaning you require (also with a figurative sense), but also meaning 'warp and woof'. Perhaps you should add this 'woof' to a list of synonyms for 'weft'.

Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru 'ystof1'

 

[Rainbowlight]

Apologies, I edited my previous post while you were writing an answer

Thanks again. It's interesting that the word web comes up, as a spiderweb can be also seen as a thin-yet-potentially-lethal textile.
.

 

[Rainbowlight]

I am no expert on weaving nor on the figurative meanings in my two main languages, but GPC tells me that there is (y)stof ac anwe for the meaning you require (also with a figurative sense), but also meaning 'warp and woof'. Perhaps you should add this 'woof' to a list of synonyms for 'weft'.

Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru 'ystof1'

I definitely will. Thanks again for your help. : )

 

[merquiades]

Vocabulary associated with weaving is so removed from my reality I have never heard the word "weft" before and "warp" I only know in the sense of "deform or distort" which may well derive from something you do in weaving. I'm not sure. We can also say "a person has a warped mind" meaning they are crazy and dangerous.

On the other hand "weave", the common word, can be used to create or tell a story, scheme, plot, or conspire.

"Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive," Marmion by Sir Walter Scott.

 

[Rainbowlight]

Vocabulary associated with weaving is so removed from my reality I have never heard the word "weft" before and "warp" I only know in the sense of "deform or distort" which may well derive from something you do in weaving. I'm not sure. We can also say "a person has a warped mind" meaning they are crazy and dangerous.

On the other hand "weave", the common word, can be used to create or tell a story, scheme, plot, or conspire.

"Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive," Marmion by Sir Walter Scott.

Thanks for your answer and the beautiful quote.

 

[Rainbowlight]

In Catalan, and I'd say in French and Italian too, it's the same as in Spanish, with both being used as verbs for plotting.

Nouns:
ordit or ordidura
trama

Verbs:
ordir
tramar

Both verbs are seen as synonyms of maquinar 'to plot, to scheme'.

This is interesting because if it's the same in all of them, one would expect a Latin origin for the common meaning. But I haven't found an extended meaning of it in Classical Latin, so it might have developed at an early stage of Vulgar Latin.

Thanks for your answer!

 

[Terio]

In Catalan, and I'd say in French and Italian too, it's the same as in Spanish, with both being used as verbs for plotting.

Nouns:
ordit or ordidura
trama

Verbs:
ordir
tramar

Both verbs are seen as synonyms of maquinar 'to plot, to scheme'.

This is interesting because if it's the same in all of them, one would expect a Latin origin for the common meaning. But I haven't found an extended meaning of it in Classical Latin, so it might have developed at an early stage of Vulgar Latin.

In French, urdimbre (warp) is machination, plan, complot but, in weaving it is chaîne (cadena, chain).

The verb ourdir is used both in weaving (to set the chaîne) and in the sense of plotting.

Trama (weft) is trame.
Tramer is also used in weaving and in the sense of plotting.

 

[Rainbowlight]

In French, urdimbre (warp) is machination, plan, complot but, in weaving it is chaîne (cadena, chain).

The verb ourdir is used both in weaving (to set the chaîne) and in the sense of plotting.

Trama (weft) is trame.
Tramer is also used in weaving and in the sense of plotting.

Merci beaucoup pour votre aide.

 

[Rainbowlight]

In French, urdimbre (warp) is machination, plan, complot but, in weaving it is chaîne (cadena, chain).

The verb ourdir is used both in weaving (to set the chaîne) and in the sense of plotting.

Trama (weft) is trame.
Tramer is also used in weaving and in the sense of plotting.

Merci beaucoup pour votre aide.

 

[Encolpius]

Yes, the double meaning works in Hungarian, too.

urdir & tramar - sző in Hungarian (& e.g.: terveket sző - to plot plans)

The both works in Czech, too

 

[Rainbowlight]

Yes, the double meaning works in Hungarian, too.

urdir & tramar - sző in Hungarian (& e.g.: terveket sző - to plot plans)

The both works in Czech, too

Thank you very much. : )