welcome to any help that I can give you

VicNicSor

Banned
Russian
A bank robbery. Outside, Skinner, the FBI official, finds the policeman in charge by the building.
Skinner: You in charge here?
Kraskow: Lieutenant Kraskow. Is the Bureau taking over?
Skinner: You're welcome to any help that I can give you, but that's not why I'm here. What can you tell me?
And then Kraskow reports the situation.

The X-Files, episode Monday

I think it should have been "welcome to have/get/receive any help", i.e., an infinitive. Because "to be welcome to (noun)" has a different meaning.
Do you agree with that?
Thanks.
 
  • Chasint

    Senior Member
    English - England
    The phrase is correct idiomatic English.

    What different meaning does "to be welcome to (noun)" have?
     

    lingobingo

    Senior Member
    English - England
    It’s often used with a noun rather than a verb:

    Have you, by any chance, got any old clothes you don’t need?
    You’re welcome to this coat, if you want it.
     

    VicNicSor

    Banned
    Russian
    What different meaning does "to be welcome to (noun)" have?
    WELCOME:
    3 a — used to say that someone can have or take something because you do not want it yourself;
    — + to
    If you want that last cookie, you're welcome to it–I can't eat another bite.
    If she really wants this old computer, she's welcome to it.

    3 b — used to say that someone can certainly do or use something if he or she wants to;
    — followed by to + verb
    Anyone is welcome to use the pool. [=anyone can use the pool]
    You are welcome to sleep here if you want.
    M-W

    I.e., it's two different meanings (and other dictionaries point that difference too).

    x-posted
     

    Keith Bradford

    Senior Member
    English (Midlands UK)
    You need to distinguish between three meanings, in fact:
    1. Welcome to <placename>! A greeting to a visitor. "You will shortly be landing at Heathrow. Welcome to London!"
    2. To be welcome to <(verb) + noun>. An invitation to take something. "You are welcome to (borrow) any tool in the workshop which may be useful."
    3. By extension of 2: "You're welcome to it" = Please take it away, It's no use to me.
    Hence the old joke: Russian air hostess to passenger - "Is this your first visit to the USSR? You're welcome to it."
     
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    lingobingo

    Senior Member
    English - England
    I don’t see you’re welcome to do something and you’re welcome to [have/take] something (where the verb is optional) as different definitions, as such.

    But however you look at it, “You're welcome to any help that I can give you” is fine. There’s no need to add a verb, and if you did, none of those suggested in the OP would sound natural anyway.
     

    VicNicSor

    Banned
    Russian
    "You're welcome to it" is not an infinitive. :confused:

    "You're welcome to take it." is infinitive.
    I said "should be" (or "should have been" in #1), not "is".

    I don’t see you’re welcome to do something and you’re welcome to [have/take] something (where the verb is optional) as different definitions, as such.

    But however you look at it, “You're welcome to any help that I can give you” is fine. There’s no need to add a verb, and if you did, none of those suggested in the OP would sound natural anyway.
    But if we just omit the verb, how do we distinguish these two meanings of "welcome to"?
     

    Chasint

    Senior Member
    English - England
    ...
    But if we just omit the verb, how do we distinguish these two meanings of "welcome to"?
    No verb is being omitted. There was no verb there in the first place.

    I think would help if you gave us some specific examples of complete sentences, with and without omitted verbs. That way we can see what you mean.
     

    VicNicSor

    Banned
    Russian
    I've noticed, in dictionaries, that in all cases of "welcome to (something)" it's usually "welcome to it". So maybe "welcome to it" is a kind of expression too and that's why "welcome to any help" would not be confused with that?...
     

    VicNicSor

    Banned
    Russian
    It's just the same pattern:

    You're welcome to any help that I can give you
    You're welcome to any old things that I can give you

    And it corresponds to meaning 3a in #4. But in the OP, it's definitely 3b:confused:
     

    lingobingo

    Senior Member
    English - England
    The meanings are, in essence, the same – even though the grammar has to change according to whether you’re inviting someone to do something or to have/take something.

    You’re welcome to (do/have whatever) = (Doing/having whatever) is fine by me, so please go ahead
     

    VicNicSor

    Banned
    Russian
    The meanings are, in essence, the same – even though the grammar has to change according to whether you’re inviting someone to do something or to have/take something.

    You’re welcome to (do/have whatever) = (Doing/having whatever) is fine by me, so please go ahead
    Sorry but these all are verbs, while in the OP it's a noun. I.e. looks like he gets rid of some help he doesn't need any more...
     

    lingobingo

    Senior Member
    English - England
    I’m sure you understand my point only too well. The effective meaning of “You’re welcome” (as under discussion here) is the same whether it’s followed by a verb or a noun – and the “please take this, I want to get shot of it” meaning is just a petulant use of the expression.
     

    JulianStuart

    Senior Member
    English (UK then US)
    Sorry but these all are verbs, while in the OP it's a noun. I.e. looks like he gets rid of some help he doesn't need any more...
    Why are you apologizing ?:D
    I’m sure you understand my point only too well. The effective meaning of “You’re welcome” (as under discussion here) is the same whether it’s followed by a verb or a noun – and the “please take this, I want to get shot of it” meaning is just a petulant use of the expression.
    But unless we can point to a dictionary that supports what we natives say, Vic doesn’t like to accept explanations like that:)
     

    Oddmania

    Senior Member
    French
    It's just the same pattern:

    You're welcome to any help that I can give you
    You're welcome to any old things that I can give you

    And it corresponds to meaning 3a in #4. But in the OP, it's definitely 3b:confused:
    I don't really understand the distinction you seem to be making. Both examples above fall into the scope of the definition 3.a that you quoted earlier. The meaning is the same.

    You're welcome to this coat = You can take this coat, if you like.
    "You're welcome to any help that I can give you, but that's not why I'm here." = You're free to accept any help that I can give you, but I haven't come here to help you.
     

    VicNicSor

    Banned
    Russian
    I don't really understand the distinction you seem to be making. Both examples above fall into the scope of the definition 3.a that you quoted earlier. The meaning is the same.

    You're welcome to this coat = You can take this coat, if you like.
    "You're welcome to any help that I can give you, but that's not why I'm here." = You're free to accept any help that I can give you, but I haven't come here to help you.
    Because definition 3a is about "something because you do not want it yourself":confused: That's the nuance I've been talking about.
     

    Chasint

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Because definition 3a is about "something because you do not want it yourself":confused: That's the nuance I've been talking about.
    The nuance is provided by the circumstances and most of all by the tone of voice.

    "Can I have this old jumper?"
    "Yes of course my dear - you're (most) welcome to it." :)

    "Can I have this old jumper?"
    "Huh, that old piece of crap! You're (bloody) welcome to it!" :~P
     
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    JulianStuart

    Senior Member
    English (UK then US)
    Because definition 3a is about "something because you do not want it yourself":confused: That's the nuance I've been talking about.
    But that nuance is not relevant to the OP and the “need” to “insert” a verb into the expression, which is what I thought the thread was about. The meaning of “you are welcome to noun/verb” is the same (feel free to do/take X) in the two usage situations (whether I want to get rid of it or offer you a gift) and the dictionary is simpy providing helpful illustrations of those two situations.
    Heres another pair of different usage situations with the same meaning (giving assent)
    You can go home now (for all I care - do whatever you want)
    You can go home now (you have completed the task and have permission to go home)

    Cross-posted and typos
     
    I think help is not something we can treat in the same way as a cookie or a unused tool. You are welcome to my help is what we implicitly say when we say You are welcome.
    - Thank you for showing me the road
    - You are welcome (to my help)

    So you are welcome to any help... I think it is just an explicit variation on the same pattern.

    You are welcome to any help that I can give you, in my opinion, is more on the line of You are welcome to my house than You are welcome to these cookies, I can't have more of them.
     
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    SevenDays

    Senior Member
    Spanish
    M-W

    I.e., it's two different meanings (and other dictionaries point that difference too).

    x-posted
    Dictionaries don't do grammar (or at least they do grammar superficially).
    According to M-W,
    If you want that last cookie, you're welcome to it
    means 3a ("used to say that someone can have or take something because you do not want it yourself)
    but it's also understood that I want the last cookie (otherwise I wouldn't be interested in it), which means that this sentence should also come under definition 3b ("used to say that someone can certainly do or use something if he or she wants to").

    Dictionaries don't do grammar. Simply stated, the verb welcome takes as complement nouns, -ing verb forms, and elements headed by to (noun: "You're welcome to any help that I can give you;" infinitive ("You're welcome to have any help that I can give you"). I'm sure it takes other types of complements, which escape me at the moment.

    You can add an infinitive after "to" if you want to (that particular phrasing would still be headed by "to"), doing so is not required by meaning (particularly meaning defined by M-W).

    Because I'm extremely polite person:eek::D

    ---------
    Thanks to everybody!
    You omitted an article! Oh no!
    Is that I'm an extremely polite person or I'm the extremely polite person? :rolleyes:
     
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