Welsh: Vowel fusion at word boundaries

n8abx9

Senior Member
German - Germany
Welsh has vowels that join together when two vowels come together:

Dw i'n mynd i weld y ci. => Dw i'n mynd i'w weld o.
Galla i fwytho'r ci. => Galla i'i fwytho fo. (Interestingly this time not "i'w" even though it's the same vowels "i + ei" that meet but "i" has a different meaning.)
Dw i'n gallu mwytho'r gath. => Dw i'n gallu'i mwytho hi. (the "e" dropping out, does this always happen after an end vowel?)

I am not sure how many such contractions exist. Can anybody point me to a resource that lists them?

Thank you!
 
  • Welsh_Sion

    Senior Member
    Welsh - Northern
    This needs more research, but I can tell you that sentence two is wrong. This should read,

    Galla i ei fwytho fo*

    There is no contraction to <i'i> in this construction.

    I've seen a growing use of contraction in <wedi'i> but I see this as being ugly (yes, that's a non-linguistic term, I know) and I always write <wedi ei/eu>.

    I know of at least another Cymraeg native here - @Tegs - and between us, and with your help, too, I'm sure we can work something out! :)

    (*Note - Da iawn ti am ddefnyddio tafodiaith y Gogledd! Does dim llawer ohonyn ni o gwmpas!)
     

    n8abx9

    Senior Member
    German - Germany
    Diolch yn fawr iawn!

    Would that be the same for

    "Gawn ni'i fwyta fo?" (bwyd, not the dog)

    rather being

    "Gawn ni ei fwyta fo?"

    ?

    (Mae gen i ffrind sy'n byw ym Mhwllheli. :) )
     

    Welsh_Sion

    Senior Member
    Welsh - Northern
    Yes, I wouldn't write <ni'i> under any circumstances. I might pronounce it that way, [ni: i], but <ni ei> would be correct written.

    I don't see why not eating the dog ... Never heard of a ci poeth? ;)

    (My accent is rural Arfon, so I can relate to Pwllheli yn dda iawn ...)

    I saw this in your other post requesting drilling: Gawn ni'i fwyta fe?

    I can't see this being correct somehow - maybe it's again a reflection of (Hwntw/De)speak ... i.e. Southern pronunciation. (It goes without saying 'fe' is never part of my active vocab.)
     
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    Welsh_Sion

    Senior Member
    Welsh - Northern
    D. Geraint Lewis - Geiriadur Cymraeg Gomer (trans. W_S):

    1 'i is used after vowels except in the case of the preposition 'i' and a noun or pronoun ending in -i, -u, -y nor after neu, mai or wedi. ('w is used after the prep. i): a'i dad, Fe'i welais e.

    2 genitive 'u is used after vowels or diphthongs: o'u cartref, gyda'u plant.

    3 where 'u is the object, then it follows 'a' (relative pronoun), 'na' (ibid.) and after particles used in front of verbs: Pwy a'u gwelodd? Dyma'r llyfrau y'u prynais.
     

    n8abx9

    Senior Member
    German - Germany
    That's great! Trying to sort some examples ...


    1. Dropping of a vowel (plus apostrophy)

    [after prepositions]
    â + ei/eu = â'i :arrow: "Allet ti siarad â'i athrawes?" / "siarad â'u meddyg" / "sy'n gysylltiedig â'i gilydd"
    o + ei/eu :arrow: o'u cartref
    gyda + ei/eu :arrow: gyda'u plant


    [after pronouns]
    i (pronoun) + eich = i'ch :arrow: "Alla i'ch helpu chi?" *
    fo + ei :arrow: Fo'i welais o **

    [after relativ pronouns or similar]
    a/na + ei/eu :arrow: a'i dad / Pwy a'u gwelodd?
    y + ei/eu :arrow: Dyma'r llyfrau y'u prynais. / Dyma llyfr y'i brynais. (??)


    2. Turning into something else (plus apostrophy)

    i (preposition) + ei/eu = w :idea: "Dw i'n mynd i'w weld o." / Rwyt ti'n dal i'w caru nhw.


    ___

    * I wonder what about "â + ein"? Allwn ni'n siarad â ein athrawes ni? ... â'in athrawes ni? ... â'n athrawes ni??
    And "â + eich"? Allwch chi'n siarad â eich athrawes chi? ... â'ich athrawes chi? ... â'ch athrawes chi??

    What about "i (preposition) + ein/eich"? Dw i'n mynd i'ch helpu chi? Dw i'n mynd i ein gyrru ni?

    ** What about "fo + eu"? Fo'u gwelais nhw ??
     

    Welsh_Sion

    Senior Member
    Welsh - Northern
    1 [after prepositions]
    â + ei/eu = â'i :arrow: "Allet ti siarad â'i athrawes?" / "siarad â'u meddyg" / "sy'n gysylltiedig â'i gilydd"
    o + ei/eu :arrow: o'u cartref
    gyda + ei/eu :arrow: gyda'u plant

    Correct


    Note:
    Allet ti siarad â'i athrawes (o)?
    Can you speak to/with his (female) teacher?

    Allet ti siarad â'i hathrawes (hi)?
    Can you speak to/with her (female) teacher?

    Allet ti siarad â'u hathrawes (nhw)?
    Can you speak to/with their (female) teacher?

    2 [after pronouns]
    i (pronoun) + eich = i'ch :arrow:
    "Alla i'ch helpu chi?" *

    Correct

    Note:
    I wonder what about "â + ein"?
    Allwn ni'n siarad â ein athrawes ni? ... â'in athrawes ni? ... â'n athrawes ni??
    Allwn ni siarad â'n hathrawes (ni)?

    And "â + eich"?
    Allwch chi'n siarad â eich athrawes chi? ... â'ich athrawes chi?
    Allwch chi siarad â'ch athrawes chi?

    **
    fo + ei :arrow:
    Fo'i welais o
    Ef/Fo a welais
    (Abnormal sentence: 'It was him I saw')

    3 [after relative pronouns or similar]
    a/na + ei/eu :arrow: a'i dad / Pwy a'u gwelodd?
    y + ei/eu :arrow: Dyma'r llyfrau y'u prynais. / Dyma llyfr y'i brynais. (??)

    Correct


    i (preposition) + ei/eu = w :idea:
    "Dw i'n mynd i'w weld o."

    Correct

    Also: Dw i'n mynd i'w gweld hi.
    Also: Dw i'n mynd i'w gweld nhw.

    Rwyt ti'n dal i'w caru (nhw).

    Correct

    Also: Rwyt ti'n dal i'w charu (hi).
    Also: Rwyt ti'n dal i'w garu (o).


    ** What about "fo + eu"? Fo'u gwelais nhw ??

    Unclear


    Fo - He
    'u - Them/Their
    gwelais - I saw
    nhw - Them

    You're really making me work, aren't you? ;)
     
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    Welsh_Sion

    Senior Member
    Welsh - Northern
    You probably also know that prior to 1928, gyda'u gilydd was considered acceptable.

    This is no longer true: always, gyda'i gilydd.
     

    n8abx9

    Senior Member
    German - Germany
    No, I had no idea. Thank you for bringing that up, that will spare me hours of confusion when I come across it.

    So glad I found someone to ask! I think I need a break now and reread the examples. But I will get back to this!
     
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