Tends to slow business meetings down a bit, though ... and you probably wouldn't get far chatting someone up at a party![...] to me, writing and especially reading are certainly more important than talking [...]
Ws
Tends to slow business meetings down a bit, though ... and you probably wouldn't get far chatting someone up at a party![...] to me, writing and especially reading are certainly more important than talking [...]
How are these different from each other when it comes to pronunciation? Which of these dialects is more distant from, say, standard British English? Let's take Usain Bolt, does he use Jamaican English or Jamaican Creole?For completeness sake, I should also make it clear that Jamaican English is different from Jamaican Creole. Most of the videos one can find on the internet will contain Jamaican Creole, not Jamaican English. Jamaican Creole is the language of our entertainment, as opposed to Jamaican English which is the language of business and education.
It's a question of priortities I guess, and good pronunciation skills rank high on my list of priorities, and are socially desirable. I've been told that, in the UK, the better your accent the higher your chances of getting a job in, say, the office. I don't mind that terribly, though, as long as the teachers don't mislead the pupils by exposing them to an incorrect pronunciation, as it is often the case in Poland, e.g. pronouncing the word 'comfortable' as 'ˈkʌmfəteɪbl'.By the way, I don't know how many people in my country think the same, but I really don't find this bad at all; to me, writing and especially reading are certainly more important than talking... Probably not few, because language education in Russia is written-text based.
Yes, of course, but the last three factors are not as readily visible from the comfort of my own home, I'd have to talk to such individuals, which I don't have the opportunity to do. I have to make do with YT videos. There are a lot of English-speaking foreigners in my city, but sadly very few of them speak some exotic dialects of English, and I don't travel extensively, at least for now.I don't want to flog a dead horse, but let's not forget that the distinct varieties of English aren't just a question of accent, but of vocabulary, spelling and grammatical construction.
How are these different from each other when it comes to pronunciation? Which of these dialects is more distant from, say, standard British English? Let's take Usain Bolt, does he use Jamaican English or Jamaican Creole?
Jamaican Creole aka Patois is, according to grammaticians, not a dialect but another language. However, politically speaking, it is considered a dialect.How are these different from each other when it comes to pronunciation? Which of these dialects is more distant from, say, standard British English? Let's take Usain Bolt, does he use Jamaican English or Jamaican Creole?
I take your point, dreamlike. You could see those characteristics in written texts, but finding such things on the web isn't easy.[...] Yes, of course, but the last three factors are not as readily visible from the comfort of my own home, I'd have to talk to such individuals, which I don't have the opportunity to do. I have to make do with YT videos. [...]
Ouch![...] which, going forwardp) [...]
Thanks, Tony, for your detailed answer. Who would've thought that pronunciation in Jamaica is such a complex issue! Highly interesting. While doing a search on YT, I came across an unusual (for me) video. Look for 'My White Jamaican Dad' -- I must say that Jamaican English (I'm pretty sure it's not Jamaican Creole-- I read up on it a bit and it would probably be completely incomprehensible to me, which the guy in the video is not) coming from him sounds fabulous!
Thanks, WS. As interesting as it may be, reading about how Irish English or Scottish English is different from standard English is not half as fun as socializing with its speakers, which, going forwardp), I hope I will have a chance to do!
That seems odd to me as well, but I can recall reading on these very forums not too long about ago some educational institutions in the US failing native English speakers who submit work with British spellings and grammar.This seems very odd to me. I can understand choosing one English standard as the general reference, but to actually forbid people from using a word from the other standard seems excessive. As far as I'm concerned, if a kid in my class wants to call his pants "trousers," hey, it's all good.
We'll have to open a thread some time (I don't have time now) to discuss at what point a regional accent (and "regional" can refer to a region of the world) becomes a dialect and at what point a dialect becomes another language.I don't want to flog a dead horse, but let's not forget that the distinct varieties of English aren't just a question of accent, but of vocabulary, spelling and grammatical construction.
"At what point a dialect becomes another language" is something that linguists have been debating for a long time, without reaching agreement — which is why the question "How many languages are there in the world?" never has a simple answer. As for the difference between accent and dialect, that's easier: accent is only one element of dialect; dialect also includes vocabulary and grammar. Accent is only spoken; dialect may be spoken and written.[...] at what point a regional accent (and "regional" can refer to a region of the world) becomes a dialect and at what point a dialect becomes another language. [...]
Standard American isn't a good example. Each major English-speaking country has a formally standardised variant of English: so it's standard for that country. Dialects are then variants of those standards.[...] If an American speaks to me in standard American, which is perfectly comprehensible with just a few differences in grammar and word use, I can tell where he/she comes from but don't consider that to be a dialect. A dialect to me is something that is recognisably English but with a certain difficulty in understanding even for other native speakers. [...]
I agree, but the original questioner did consider American English as a dialect; I was answering that. In fact I think the thread is wrongly named for this reason.Standard American isn't a good example. Each major English-speaking country has a formally standardised variant of English: so it's standard for that country. Dialects are then variants of those standards.
130 is a very small part of the total!As for the "few differences in [grammar and] word use", I'm not so sure about "few". I have a list of AE/BE vocabulary differences I've jotted down (as they arise) to help non-native English speakers where I work: I'm already up to more than 130 everyday words and expressions — and I've no doubt there are loads more.
Ws![]()
Good point.[...] I agree, but the original questioner did consider American English as a dialect; I was answering that. In fact I think the thread is wrongly named for this reason. [...]
I read somewhere that only about a thousand words are used in most people's everyday speech.[...] 130 is a very small part of the total!
Definitely, for those who are given National Flag by the UK...The English taught in public schools here is thoroughly British...
For me, this is the way that most people speak from Commonwealth countries where English is the official language but not the native one. When you learn English from books for years and years you can achieve a very high degree of fluency but it's stilted and formal. People there tend to use structures that are no longer active or common in speech, and mix them with others that might be more current but on the whole it ends up sounding strange to the native speaker.I deal with Maltese people on a regular basis through my job; they speak perfect English, often a strangely formalized version of the language in fact, but there's no doubt that they sound "foreign" (and by that I mean "non-native"). English is not a native language, on the whole, in Malta.
Very true. The Maltese seem to always say "can you kindly do/look/review X"; this is a tad strange, though correct, in my form of English.For me, this is the way that most people speak from Commonwealth countries where English is the official language but not the native one. When you learn English from books for years and years you can achieve a very high degree of fluency but it's stilted and formal. People there tend to use structures that are no longer active or common in speech, and mix them with others that might be more current but on the whole it ends up sounding strange to the native speaker.
Most teachers of English don't give pronunciation classes here either. I teach only advanced students and when I tell them how to pronounce they look at me as if I were talking Chinese, so by the time they get to me no one has ever taught them to pronounce th, h, or distinguish sit-seat, boat-bought etc... or insist on its importance. I'll never understand why teachers only do reading, writing and grammar in their classes.In terms of teaching, Poland definitely prefers BrE, mostly because it's Europe, so it's closer to us. But unless you're studying English as a profession, not that much emphasis is put on the accent, so even if there are British teachers, most people who study English don't really have British accent, they just sort of speak "international" English![]()
It's because they in turn never learnt the pronunciation; they can't teach what they don't know!I'll never understand why teachers only do reading, writing and grammar in their classes.
You just did!!That being said, I don't think I could ever bring myself to write ''color'' and ''labor''.![]()
Are you sure you are not just talking about those Maltese who desperately want to sound English. There is not just one way of speaking Maltese English. It is often very relaxed but also with words stressed in a different way - British people occasionally tell often totally misunderstand the Maltese because of that.I deal with Maltese people on a regular basis through my job; they speak perfect English, often a strangely formalized version of the language in fact, but there's no doubt that they sound "foreign" (and by that I mean "non-native"). English is not a native language, on the whole, in Malta.
[...] And native: I've met various Maltese who really speak English better than they speak Maltese. To them English is native.
If I were a non-native, I would prefer to learn American English before anything else. Firstly because it is by far the most widely spoken dialect of English and, secondly, (in my opinion at least) the General American accent is very easy to understand. Americans have a tendency to speak slowly and to pronounce each word clearly.
I found this comment interesting and probably deeper than the fact that the United States is farther away from Germany than England is. When I learned French in California, I was taught a French accent, not a French Canadian accent. Canada is much closer to me than France. Do American schools think the accent in Québec as "nonstandard"? Do schools assume that students learn French to visit France and not Canada? Or is it hard to find teachers with a québeçois accent? Interesting question.
Yes, to the point that TV/radio in Canada tries to approximate the French standard. An example of change is that until the 1960's Canadian French had a rolled r which was the original northwest France r transmitted there during colonization in the 17th century. With more audiovisual exposure to France, and education in standard French, the uvular r is imitated and is starting to replace the rolled r. In general, European French is not considered foreign, just a more formal version of local French.Interesting question. I studied French for several years and also asked myself this question a couple of times, but I've never heard Francais Quebecois being taught as a second/foreign language in any country. Seems like French is a rather "centralist" language, but I could be wrong.
This used to be true (French Canadian TV in the 50s and 60s used wholly artificial French accents). It isn't anymore.Yes, to the point that TV/radio in Canada tries to approximate the French standard. An example of change is that until the 1960's Canadian French had a rolled r which was the original northwest France r transmitted there during colonization in the 17th century. With more audiovisual exposure to France, and education in standard French, the uvular r is imitated and is starting to replace the rolled r. In general, European French is not considered foreign, just a more formal version of local French.
I think in music the position of British English is still good, if we speak about rock music (from Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones to Oasis, Arctic Monkeys and others), and Northern English accents are well positioned (all the above metioned bands except Pink Floyd and Rolling Stones are from the "North", i.e from Birmingham to Scotland).but end up miserably failing anyway because American English is everywhere they go, books, films, music, Internet, etc.![]()
Yeah, but hardly anyone sings in British English accents/dialects.I think in music the position of British English is still good, if we speak about rock music (from Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones to Oasis, Arctic Monkeys and others), and Northern English accents are well positioned (all the above metioned bands except Pink Floyd and Rolling Stones are from the "North", i.e from Birmingham to Scotland).
95 per cent of the time, you won't be able to tell where someone's from when they sing (at least, I can't).Yeah, but hardly anyone sings in British English accents/dialects.
Unless, of course, they make a conscious effort to do so.95 per cent of the time, you won't be able to tell where someone's from when they sing (at least, I can't).
Really?Yeah, but hardly anyone sings in British English accents/dialects.
Listen to "Dancing Shoes" and "I Bet You Look Good On The Dancefloor" (Arctic Monkeys):British singers invariably pronounce "dance" as something near to "dence", American style
Bono comes to mind.It does seem to vary depending on style of music and the group/artist(s) in question. More poppy and dance tracks have a more mid-Atlantic pronunciation as a rule for example. But as others have pointed out, there are a number of British bands who eschew such "affectations".
But at the beginning (let's say, from 1980 to 1987) he dropped his "r" before consonants and at the end of a word (not followed by a vowel).Bono comes to mind.![]()
Really? For a long time I didn't even know they were British.Mishe said:It has always been obvious that bands like Oasis sing in their native accent.
The Proclaimers' Scottish accent is fun.