"Dence" certainly isn't any American accent I know.British singers invariably pronounce "dance" as something near to "dence", American style, while no British regional pronunciation remotely approaches this.
"Dence" certainly isn't any American accent I know.British singers invariably pronounce "dance" as something near to "dence", American style, while no British regional pronunciation remotely approaches this.
You mean pronouncing /bət/ for "but"? That seems odd.![]()
Probably I like these accents because I like those bands.
But, from a phonetic point of view, they seem more similar to Italian vowels.
No difference between flat and broad "a" (with only an open central "a"), a schwa-like "but" vowel, generally one quality (with length difference) for "bot" and "bought" vowels, a mid "o" quality for the short "u" (very open, more easily differentiated with the long "u") and so on (a system which is very similar to that of the Canadian accent, which is rhotic). I'm speaking of the accents (not of the dialects).
The Italians, Spanish etc. cannot hear the difference between "sat" and "set" and are always saying throughout the forum that they have merged in American English, and on the contrary the British pronounce them with Italian-like vowels. My ears have never picked up on either of them.JamesM said:"Dence" certainly isn't any American accent I know. I've always noticed this, too, but it doesn't sound American at all to me. It's uniquely a British singer thing.
The answer is: yes.You mean pronouncing /bət/ for "but"? That seems odd.
An "o" instead of short "u"? What do you mean, "op" instead of "up"?![]()
Are you saying that the vowel of "bought" is a diphthong? where?And only a length difference between "bot" and "bought"? Without the diphthong?
Excuse me, but what I hear is confirmed by phonologists. The flat "a" in Liverpool has F2 = 1393 Hz, in the US it has F2 > 1825 Hz. There is a huge difference between the pronunciation of The Wombats or Artic Monkeys and that of an American band (let's say , Queens of the Stone Age).The Italians, Spanish etc. cannot hear the difference between "sat" and "set" and are always saying throughout the forum that they have merged in American English, and on the contrary the British pronounce them with Italian-like vowels. My ears have never picked up on either of them.
That's interesting. "Sat" and "set" are very distinct to me, but then I'm listening for what I'm expecting. "Sat" is much more open and broader.The Italians, Spanish etc. cannot hear the difference between "sat" and "set" and are always saying throughout the forum that they have merged in American English, and on the contrary the British pronounce them with Italian-like vowels. My ears have never picked up on either of them.
I agree. The sounds are distinct.That's interesting. "Sat" and "set" are very distinct to me, but then I'm listening for what I'm expecting. "Sat" is much more open and broader.
The song that came to mind when I read "Dence" for "dance" was David Bowie singing "Put on your red shoes and 'dehnce' with me" ("Let's Dance"). It's closer to an American "dance" than the British RP "dahnse" but the "a" is closed down a bit. The background singers sing "dance" with a very American accent and a flat, open "an" sound. George Michael in "Careless Whisper" also leans towards that same "dehnse" sound about half the time, although "chance" comes out consistently with an American flat "a".
No, they wouldn't. That's why I thought it was odd that Einstein associated it with an American accent.I don't think Americans of any accent would pronounce "an" as "en",
Yes, he says something close to "dense" then later on he also says "danes". He's got a kind of twangy sounding accent. In another song he say "if you do waunt..." And in yet another one he say... "Never gaunna make you crah, never gaunna say good bah"Try the Rick Astley song. I think you'll hear it there, particularly because he pronounces it two different ways.
All the Midlanders I know (and I know a great many) would not class the Midlands (and therefore not Birmingham) as the North![...] if we speak about rock music (from Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones to Oasis, Arctic Monkeys and others), and Northern English accents are well positioned (all the above metioned bands except Pink Floyd and Rolling Stones are from the "North", i.e from Birmingham to Scotland).
I think it goes back to the fifties, when rock'n'roll became big in the US, and quickly made its way to the UK. The first rock'n'roll singers were all American (Carl Perkins, Bill Haley, Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, Little Richard, Fats Domino, Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, etc, etc). In Britain, skiffle was already big, and skiffle groups were playing high-tempo versions of American folk, country and blues songs — with, of course, 'authentic' American accents. When British groups started playing rock'n'roll, they simply emulated the accents of the big American stars. Later, groups such as the Stones, the Animals, etc, played a big part in the blues and blues rock revival in the UK, using songs of Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf, Leadbelly, and so on — so naturally with American accents. Howlin' Wolf with a Kentish or Geordie accent just wouldn't have worked!I've noticed for a long time that British pop or rock singers usually sing in American accents and wondered why. It's true there is a huge financial incentive to market to American audiences. Adele and Amy Winehouse come to mind just off the top of my head.
I agree. I mentioned Led Zeppelin about AmE vs. BE in rock music. What I mean is that there are many Northern English indie rock bands who sing with their accent.that hardly includes Led Zeppelin.
I can buy that. That reminds me of a trend in the US for country music singers to sing in a strong southern accent even if they do not originally come from that area. It might be that desire for authenticity. Country in strong Chicagoese would sound ridiculous.I doubt that any of those 50s and 60s UK groups had the US commercial market in mind: they'd developed their singing style long before they could even dream of international success. If the accent was adopted deliberately, I'd say it was in the interests of authenticity. But I suspect that it was essentially an automatic imitation; it's just the way that kind of music was sung. I'm sure a lot of singers didn't/don't consciously think of it as an American accent: it's just a 'rock vocals' accent.
And many journalists say "jobs ect".In Italy the idea exists that if you pronounce every "a", whether in "hat" or "hate", also schwa, as an "e", you know English! Adrian becomes Edrien, while Matt Damon becomes Mett Demon (rhyming with lemon). Alive becomes elive.
Mark Knopfler is an interesting case. His accent seems to vary according to the context of the lyrics. In songs about Northumberland, where he was brought up, he has a Geordie-ish accent. In others, it varies from more-or-less neutral British to mid-Atlantic. When the context is American, it's more American (Money for Nothing, for example) ... and on his album with Emmylou Harris I hear tones I'd put somewhere around North Carolina.I can buy that. That reminds me of a trend in the US for country music singers to sing in a strong southern accent even if they do not originally come from that area. It might be that desire for authenticity. Country in strong Chicagoese would sound ridiculous.
You're right! He's definitely going for Alabama. "Tayme's running aout for me." At some point he had dropped off my radar. I had failed to realize he had metamorphosed into a country music star. However was I surprised.Mark Knopfler is an interesting case. His accent seems to vary according to the context of the lyrics. In songs about Northumberland, where he was brought up, he has a Geordie-ish accent. In others, it varies from more-or-less neutral British to mid-Atlantic. When the context is American, it's more American (Money for Nothing, for example) ... and on his album with Emmylou Harris I hear tones I'd put somewhere around North Carolina.
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I was surprised when I learned that he was from the north-east of England. I had heard him in an interview years after hearing his songs and had assumed he was American. Hearing a north-east accent coming from someone you had previously thought was from the US was a bit surreal at first!Mark Knopfler is an interesting case. His accent seems to vary according to the context of the lyrics. In songs about Northumberland, where he was brought up, he has a Geordie-ish accent. In others, it varies from more-or-less neutral British to mid-Atlantic. When the context is American, it's more American (Money for Nothing, for example) ... and on his album with Emmylou Harris I hear tones I'd put somewhere around North Carolina.
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For the precision, also Luciano Canepari says that Northern English /æ/ = canIPA [a], IPA [ä], i.e open central and Eastern Midlands /æ/ = canIPA [A], IPA [a], i.e open front-central (English Pronunciations, page 202, accent of York, page 190, accent of Birmingham), and it is well present (the central one) in the songs and bands I was speaking about.The Italians, Spanish etc. cannot hear the difference between "sat" and "set" and are always saying throughout the forum that they have merged in American English, and on the contrary the British pronounce them with Italian-like vowels. My ears have never picked up on either of them.
Einstein;15144367...In Italy the idea exists that if you pronounce every "a" said:A whole lot of Germans seem to aggree - for reasons I have never been able to figure out.
I've had it explained to me, more than once, by German teachers of English, who perceive /æ/ as being pronounced much like [ɛ], and who insist that that's the 'normal' (or at least 'correct') BrE pronunciation of English words such as bad, hat and cat. They're surprised when I tell them that was true of some traditional RP speakers up until about the mid-twentieth century (a minority group even then, but much flaunted by the BBC and in academic circles), but that for more than half a century hardly any UK English speakers have used that pronunciation. Some modern UK dictionaries and language reference sources have even dropped /æ/, and now show standard pronunciations as /bad/, /hat/, /kat/, etc. But some non-native teachers of English (in Germany, and apparently in Italy, and probably elsewhere) are still teaching what they were taught by others, who taught what they were taught, ...A whole lot of Germans seem to aggree - for reasons I have never been able to figure out.
It depends on the speaker.Some modern UK dictionaries and language reference sources have even dropped /æ/, and now show standard pronunciations as /bad/, /hat/, /kat/, etc.
I don't know what basis such theorists use to draw such conclusions: perhaps spectrogram analysis of selected samples? My comments were based on the thousands of native speakers I've listened to over time, and still hear on a daily basis (directly, with my ears, not in recordings which can be somewhat artificial) — and yes, I spend time with people from Milton Keynes, Cambridge, Luton and Guildford, among others.[...] but still today, in Central Home counties (Milton Keynes, Cambridge, Ipswich, Luton, Guildford, Brigton, Dover) and London, /æ/ is [ɛ] because in these accents /ʌ/ is very low, i.e [ä] (or even [a] in Cockney).
Some works, like those of Cheshire about "Multicultural London English" say that some younger speakers in London have more back positions for both /æ/ and /ʌ/ (respectively [a] and [ɑ]) but in "mediatic" pronunciation, i.e the so called "Estuary English", which is an accent which has some features of London (Cockney) and Central Home Counties accents, /æ/ is still [ɛ] [...]
Really? Even in the upper classes?In the early/mid 20th century, 'traditional RP' speakers pronounced bad almost exactly as they pronounced bed; (listen to recordings of BBC presenters and reporters in the '50s). Those speakers were a minority even then, but their accent was adopted and propagated around the world as 'standard' British English. Nowadays it's hard to find anyone with that accent (apart from the Queen and a few elderly members of the 'upper classes').
Analysis of many speakers and "normalized" values (as they say).I don't know what basis such theorists use to draw such conclusions: perhaps spectrogram analysis of selected samples?
I didn't say that.Now, if you want to say that the vowel of bed is pronunced [ɛ], and if you want to say that the vowel of bad is /æ/, then it's not true that /æ/ is pronounced [ɛ] by any significant group of UK speakers.
I know. That's why I said "if".[...] I didn't say that.[...]
Thanks, Nino, you've made my point. I was addressing Einstein's comment, reiterated by Sepia:[...] There are no accents with the bad/bed merger. Nobody says that. [...]
It's not about absolute values of vowels, but about relative values. 'Traditional RP' did have a bad/bed merger; present-day English forms don't. If some non-native (Italian, German, ...) speakers practice a bad/bed merger, then the explanation that they're emulating an out-of-date 'traditional' RP (taught by their teachers who were taught by their teachers) seems quite likely.[...] In Italy the idea exists that if you pronounce every "a", whether in "hat" or "hate", also schwa, as an "e", you know English! Adrian becomes Edrien, while Matt Damon becomes Mett Demon (rhyming with lemon). Alive becomes elive.
Really, Pedro ... well, in my experience anyway. I know a number of families (some in Debrett's, even) where the grandparents have very plummy accents (and hev jem for tea), the parents much less so, and the younger generation sound entirely 'normal' (and eat jam ... refined jam, perhaps, but still jam).Really? Even in the upper classes?
This is how British Army officers used to speak. I suppose the officer here is either dead or one of those grandparents you were talking about!Really, Pedro ... well, in my experience anyway. I know a number of families (some in Debrett's, even) where the grandparents have very plummy accents (and hev jem for tea), the parents much less so, and the younger generation sound entirely 'normal' (and eat jam ... refined jam, perhaps, but still jam).![]()
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Yes, at school it is taught like that (there are other mergers, like bit/beat and hood/who'd).It's not about absolute values of vowels, but about relative values. 'Traditional RP' did have a bad/bed merger; present-day English forms don't. If some non-native (Italian, German, ...) speakers practice a bad/bed merger, then the explanation that they're emulating an out-of-date 'traditional' RP (taught by their teachers who were taught by their teachers) seems quite likely.
It is true for the "long o", /oʊ/, which is pronounced with a monophthong, like in "boat", "open" but it is not true for the "long a", /eɪ/, which it is pronounced [ɛj] (except for "break", "great" that, because of the spelling, are pronounced "grijt" and "brek"), like in "make up", "Dave".In Italy the idea exists that if you pronounce every "a", whether in "hat" or "hate", also schwa, as an "e", you know English!
Well, I speak Californian English natively, and I have learned some French. The French sound [e] to me sounds similar to the starting point of my English /eɪ/.Yes, at school it is taught like that (there are other mergers, like bit/beat and hood/who'd).
If teachers wanted to teach British English they should say that if you pronounce "bat" with an [ɛ] you should pronounce "bet" with an [e] (we have both sounds) or one could pronounce "bat" with an [a] (or an [æ], if it's possible) and "bet" with an [ɛ].
What I don't understand is why some Americans keep saying they don't pronounce "dance", "hands" and "man" with an "e". It is really an "e". It is, often, even higher than an Italian/French/Portuguese/Catalan/Galician (and so on) open "e".
(Labov, Atlas of North American English, page 125)In southern England and Australia, the short vowels shift to relatively higher and fronter positions without developing inglides. In New Zealand, /i/ moves back to high central position, forming a chain shift with /e/ as it rises to high front peripheral position
(Labov, page 244)The triggering event is a change in the front upgliding diphthong /ay/. In most of the languages and dialects affected by this process, the nucleus of /ay/ moves back and upward along the peripheral path as route 1 in Figure 18.3. This is the path followed in most southern British dialects, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa (Labov, Yaeger, and Steiner 1972, Trudgill 2004).
I pronounce "flush" [ʌ] (mid-back mid-open), "flash" [a] (mid-front, open) and "flesh" [ɛ] or [e̞], pronounce every "r" and have the cot-caught merger.Do not pronounce flush as flash, and flash as flesh!![]()
But "club" with [ɛ] is a loanword (like your [klubi]).It is funny, in Italian they pronounce cover (of a song) with an [o],and club with an [e].![]()
Hmm... I had forgotten about this pattern, and actually I don't think I've ever been in an area with one of these accents. Is it only for /ŋg/, or all /ŋ/ ? I guess there aren't so many words with /æŋg/... but they are still fairly common, like anger, language, tangle, jangle. Personally, I'm from California but I have tense /æ/ in all places before a nasal, and lax /æ/ in all other places. I had heard that some speakers have a different type of tense /æ/ before /ŋ/ than the one they have before /m, n/: the pre-/ŋ/ variant is supposed to be a closing diphthong, like [æɪ] or even [eɪ] (I think it can technically "merge" with the /eɪ/ phoneme because there is no preexisting /eɪ/ before /ŋ/, just like some speakers have phonological /i/ before /ŋ/ in place of /ɪ/.)About "language", the /æ/ tensing regards /m, n/ while in almost all accents in the US, /æ/ before /ng/ is not raised (except in Eastern New England).
Yes, /æ/ is raised, progressively, before /b, g, d/ but in Canada the order is /b, d, g/ (/æg/ is higher than /æd/).When I first came to Minnesota, the main difference I noticed with a-tensing was that besides occurring before /ŋ/, it occurs before /g/ as well as for some speakers, like in the words "rag" and "bag".
http://forum.wordreference.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15042&d=1422029580So I think a-tensing before /ŋ/ is fairly common. I looked at this Wikipedia article, and it has a chart where it only shows tensing before /m/,/n/, but a footnote where it simply states that before /ŋ/ it is "between [æŋ] and [eɪŋ]" for "nearly all American English speakers". (That's actually not very informative, but I think it's trying to say that it is somewhat tensed, but not all the way to /eɪ/ for most speakers.)
Yes. Voiced consonants and, among them, coronals.Is it known what the phonetic trigger for this raising is? With regard to MOA effects, it looks like the raising often occurs in positions where allophonic vowel lengthening is also favored. For the POA effects, I guess coronals tend to be associated with higher vowels.
Where would you put New Jersey in that system?Yes. Voiced consonants and, among them, coronals.
Labov divides North American dialects in:
- nasal system: Eastern New England, where /æn/ are much more high than /æ/ before voiced consonants
- progressive systems: /æ/ is raised progressively, Canada and California have lower /æ/ and lower raising, Midland accents (except Cincinnati) have the same system
- split system: New York city and Mid-Atlantic, /æ/ is raised before nasals, voiced stops and other consonants only in closed syllables
- static systems, like Northern Cities and Southern accents, where the /æ/ is just raised, even before /p, t, k/ ([e̞ə] in Northern Cities, [ɛɛ] in Southern accents)
Jersey is a Mid-Atlantic accent. This is not at all the same as New York contrary to popular belief.Where would you put New Jersey in that system?
At least in Mid-Atlantic it is.Nino 83 said:Are you saying that the vowel of "bought" is a diphthong? where?Merquiades said:And only a length difference between "bot" and "bought"? Without the diphthong?
I have yet found another British singer of a different type of music that imitâtes an American accent in her singing. I'm still trying to figure out why.I've noticed for a long time that British pop or rock singers usually sing in American accents and wondered why. It's true there is a huge financial incentive to market to American audiences. Adele and Amy Winehouse come to mind just off the top of my head.
By the way, whatever accent Mika is trying to do, he sounds just awful. I can't stand hearing him.
Lily Allen's Cockney brogue sounds pretty shocking also.
Really? For a long time I didn't even know they were British.
Her speaking voice is certainly not American, but I don't find her singing to be remotely Briish soundingAdele doesn't sing in an American accent in my view. Most singers sing in a neutral accent that is not readily identifiable as far as I can see.
No, as Pedro said, it is Mid-Atlantic, i.e. aiming for a pronunciation that neither British not American speakers you strike as "foreign" sounding.Her speaking voice is certainly not American, but I don't find her singing to be remotely Briish sounding