What is the root form of "μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς"?

miasam

Member
serbian - serbia
I know Pope Francis suggested that in the Lord's Prayer the phrase "do not lead us (into tmeptation)" was not as accurate a translation as "do not let us fall" according to the Greek original, so I looked it up and saw that it read "μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς" but I can't seem to find the root form of the verb in order to see for myself what it really meant. Can ypu help me?

edit: Would it be something like εισενεγκω?
 
  • Perseas

    Senior Member
    Greek
    εἰσενέγκω: 1st person singular, subjunctive, aorist
    εἰσενέγκῃς: 2nd person singular, subjunctive, aorist

    The verb in the indicative form of present, 1st person, is εἰσφέρω.
     

    ioanell

    Member
    Greek
    the phrase "do not lead us (into tmeptation)" was not as accurate a translation

    The translation "do not lead us (into temptation)" is the literal and accurate one, but as this might generate the internal question “Is it possible that the God Himself may lead us into temptation by His own will?” which may probably be embarrassing or even incomprehensible for the faithful, the Pope, following other earlier and also modern translations by theologians, suggested as well this softened translation implying that the people aware of their weakness for possibly committing a sin are begging the God not to let them fall into temptation.

    Note that the verb εἰσφέρω (literally εἰσ (in/into) and φέρω (bring/carry) means bring/carry (something/someone) in/into, as Perseas kindly referred you to the Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon. Unfortunately, we do not know what the original words of the Lord’s Prayer in Aramaic were, but the Greek Hellenistic text given by Evangelist Matthew is the one we refer to; and this is it. Note also the Latin (from the Greek) translation: “Et ne nos inducas in tentationem”.

    I hope this helped a bit explain some points.
     

    sotos

    Senior Member
    Greek
    ... Unfortunately, we do not know what the original words of the Lord’s Prayer in Aramaic were, but the Greek Hellenistic text given by Evangelist Matthew is the one we refer to; and this is it. Note also the Latin (from the Greek) translation: “Et ne nos inducas in tentationem”.
    Who said that the prayer was first written in Aramaic?
     

    miasam

    Member
    serbian - serbia
    sotos - because historians suggest Jesus must have spoken in Aramaic.
    ioanell, thank you for the detailed explanataion! I did a little etymological research on some translations of the prayer and I found that there is actually nothing wrong with the word temptation as it originally meant to try, test: From Latin temptare "to feel, try out, attempt to influence, test," a variant of tentare "handle, touch, try, test." which corresponds to the Slavonic word used: искушение /iskushéniye/ as it derives from the root кус /kus/ meaning to "try, test, taste" ("вкус" means taste in modern Slavic laguages, "изкусен" - skillful, trained). And we all know there are many cases in the Bible of God testing people's faith. Clearly, the original meaning that was put into this prayer was for God to not put his children to the test, precisely because of their awareness of their own weakness that you mention, which would surely make them fail it. Ergo, there shouldn't be any problem to use the word "lead" in a sense of "put through".
     

    sotos

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Πειρασμός comes from the verb πειράζω, which is found several times in the gospels (e.g. Mat. 22, 18), with the sense "annoy, tease, harass etc".

    As for the language of Jesus, there are scholars who believe that Jesus (and some apostles) had some Greek education, as most ot the Jews of his time. Even in the temple there were inscriptions with instructions in Greek, for the Jews who didn't know other language (Josephus).
     

    miasam

    Member
    serbian - serbia
    Πειρασμός comes from the verb πειράζω, which is found several times in the gospels (e.g. Mat. 22, 18), with the sense "annoy, tease, harass etc".
    It must have come to mean that after some time just like the Latin and Slavonic words, but it seems that the original meaning was precisely "to test":
    Etymology: From πεῖρα (peîra, “trial, attempt”) +‎ -άζω (-ázō)
    πειραζω - to make proof or trial. - πειράζω - Wiktionary
    As to Jesus' language - I've heard of that theory too, but honestly I'm more interested in the language in which the available texts were written, so it wouldn't make much difference to me even if Jesus spoke Tamil ;)
     

    ioanell

    Member
    Greek
    Who said that the prayer was first written in Aramaic?
    In my post #6 above you can see I did not say such thing, as no written Aramaic version of the Lord’s Prayer had been before, but the first version to be written was written directly in the Koine Greek by Apostle and Evangelist Matthew. I only spoke about the oral words of the Prayer of Jesus in Aramaic, His mother tongue, the language which, as the majority of the scholars (linguists, philologists, archaeologists and historians) believes, He most probably used both in His public ministry and when speaking to His disciples. The Aramaic version of the prayer, as all translations in other languages, is a later translation based on the original Greek text by Matthew.

    As for the language of Jesus, there are scholars who believe that Jesus (and some apostles) had some Greek education

    This is true as all these places of the Roman Empire had already known and been influenced by the Greek culture and Greek was the international language of the time. It is known that Jesus could speak Greek as He really did on occasion, but, even though “Jesus (and some apostles) had some Greek education”, it would be quite improbable that a Jewish Master teaching his disciples (some of whom with no or very poor educational background) how to pray would use another language (i.e. the international Greek) instead of their mother tongue.
     

    sotos

    Senior Member
    Greek
    it would be quite improbable that a Jewish Master teaching his disciples (some of whom with no or very poor educational background) how to pray would use another language (i.e. the international Greek) instead of their mother tongue.
    But nobody believes that Mathew himself wrote down the exact words of Jesus. Most experts believe that the gospel was written by a greek speaker in Antioch, probably for the greek-speaking christians of the Decapolis.
     

    ireney

    Modistra
    Greek Greece Mod of Greek, CC and CD
    Moderator's note: Please keep this discussion focused on the opening question and not the language Jesus spoke or the language in which the Lord's prayer was first uttered. These matters are beyond the scope of the Greek forum.
    Subsequent posts on the subject will be deleted.
     

    Scholiast

    Senior Member
    Greetings all.

    May I enter my tuppence-worth? I have two observations. First, to me, εἰσενέγκειν does not have quite the same range of meanings as Latin inducere. In the context, it is more like 'do not set us before temptation', 'do not expose us...' to it.



    Σ

    Moderator's note: Part dealing with suppositions concerning another language was deleted.
     
    Last edited by a moderator:

    ireney

    Modistra
    Greek Greece Mod of Greek, CC and CD
    Moderator's post.
    I do not want to close the thread. Please refrain from sleuthing. The question is the meaning/root form of the Greek word.
    It's possible meaning theologically and/or the possible Aramaic it may or may not have been a translation of do NOT have a place in the Greek forum.
     
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