Care este limba latină cel mai apropiat de români? Italiană? Spaniolă?
What's the closest Latin language to Romanian (întrebare importantă)
- Thread starter Stéfanobahia
- Start date
That's a hard question to answer since in the 19th century the Romanyan language was purposely and forcefully "latinsed" by the Școala Ardeleană current ( I know, this may irk some people but it's generally accepted nowadays ...)
According to the linguist Ileana Cojocaru the Romanian language as we know it today contains 29% of French words in its lexical fund.
For me, French and Italian are easier to understand and communicate in, with Spanish/Portugese a rather distant second.
As a bit of a fun fact, in Romanian for woman we have "femeie" related to the French femme and also the now archaic "muiere" related to the Spanish word mujer. Go figure
Later,
f.
According to the linguist Ileana Cojocaru the Romanian language as we know it today contains 29% of French words in its lexical fund.
For me, French and Italian are easier to understand and communicate in, with Spanish/Portugese a rather distant second.
As a bit of a fun fact, in Romanian for woman we have "femeie" related to the French femme and also the now archaic "muiere" related to the Spanish word mujer. Go figure
Later,
f.
Sunday Greetings to all,
You probably want to know about the top Latin countries where the Latin heritage weighs considerably.
As a side, it's so sad to see that History is sometimes guided not to be a science of proofs but a fictitious book of centuries with blank pages... when so convenient. Those intellectuals of the 19th c. were patriots who saw the danger of losing linguistic territory of mother-language and fought for the Romanian language not to break with our Latin roots, as perpetually intended.
Anyway, there are multiple and very interesting threads to follow in the EHL pages!
1.Which Romance language is closest to Latin? (p.4)
2.Romance Languages: origin of the definite article (p.9)
3.Italian and Romanian plural (p. 9)
You probably want to know about the top Latin countries where the Latin heritage weighs considerably.
As a side, it's so sad to see that History is sometimes guided not to be a science of proofs but a fictitious book of centuries with blank pages... when so convenient. Those intellectuals of the 19th c. were patriots who saw the danger of losing linguistic territory of mother-language and fought for the Romanian language not to break with our Latin roots, as perpetually intended.
Anyway, there are multiple and very interesting threads to follow in the EHL pages!
1.Which Romance language is closest to Latin? (p.4)
2.Romance Languages: origin of the definite article (p.9)
3.Italian and Romanian plural (p. 9)
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Alcune parole italiane e rumene sono simili! La revere = arrivederci buna seara = buonacera.That's a hard question to answer since in the 19th century the Romanyan language was purposely and forcefully "latinsed" by the Școala Ardeleană current ( I know, this may irk some people but it's generally accepted nowadays ...)
According to the linguist Ileana Cojocaru the Romanian language as we know it today contains 29% of French words in its lexical fund.
For me, French and Italian are easier to understand and communicate in, with Spanish/Portugese a rather distant second.
As a bit of a fun fact, in Romanian for woman we have "femeie" related to the French femme and also the now archaic "muiere" related to the Spanish word mujer. Go figure
Later,
f.
muiere è simili alla parola portoghesa "mulher".
Înțelege limba retoromană?
Rumantsch dal Grischun - Wikipedia
Il rumantsch dal Grischun che vegn discurrì en il chantun Grischun fa part da las linguas neolatinas e vegn numnà en la lingua da mintgadi ‹rumantsch› (sursilvan: ‹romontsch› / puter: ‹rumauntsch›). Il term ‹rumantsch dal Grischun› vegn duvrà en la linguistica, perquai che tscherts linguists attribueschan era il furlan ed il ladin da las Dolomitas a la gruppa da varietads retorumantschas (sin basa da tschertas sumeglientschas tranter las trais gruppas dialectalas). Questa tesa è dentant contestada entaifer la scienza (guarda: Questione Ladina).
Da, există multe similitudini între italiană si română.
Pentru mine personal italiana si spaniola par mai apropiate de română decât franceza sau portugheza. E posibil să fiu influențat și de faptul că am învățat italiana în școală. Franceza și portugheza îmi par mai îndepărtate.
Linkurile de la irinet sunt interesante, merită vizitate și au legătură cu întrebarea inițială.
Despre rumatsch: reușesc să înțeleg ideile. A doua propoziție de mai sus mi-e neclară. Pare apropiată de italiană.
Pentru mine personal italiana si spaniola par mai apropiate de română decât franceza sau portugheza. E posibil să fiu influențat și de faptul că am învățat italiana în școală. Franceza și portugheza îmi par mai îndepărtate.
Linkurile de la irinet sunt interesante, merită vizitate și au legătură cu întrebarea inițială.
Despre rumatsch: reușesc să înțeleg ideile. A doua propoziție de mai sus mi-e neclară. Pare apropiată de italiană.
Moderator note: Moved to EHL.
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here there is a short list of prepositions and conjunctions that are really different in Romanian (compared to the other Romance languages).
Here the first article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in Portuguese, Italian and Romanian.
Todos os seres humanos nascem livres e iguais em dignidade e em direitos. Dotados de razão e de consciência, devem agir uns para com os outros em espírito de fraternidade.
Tutti gli esseri umani nascono liberi ed eguali in dignità e diritti. Essi sono dotati di ragione e di coscienza e devono agire gli uni verso gli altri in spirito di fratellanza. (in Italian there is "fraternità" too)
Toate fiinţele umane se nasc libere şi egale în demnitate şi în drepturi. Ele înzestraţe cu raţiune şi conştiinţă şi trebuie să se comporte unii faţă de altele în spiritul fraternităţii.
As one can see, Portuguese and Italian are very very similar while Romanian words have undergone too many phonetic changes and there are six different words in the Romanian text while only one is different (para vs. verso) if we compare the Italian and the Portuguese text.
Here the first article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in Portuguese, Italian and Romanian.
Todos os seres humanos nascem livres e iguais em dignidade e em direitos. Dotados de razão e de consciência, devem agir uns para com os outros em espírito de fraternidade.
Tutti gli esseri umani nascono liberi ed eguali in dignità e diritti. Essi sono dotati di ragione e di coscienza e devono agire gli uni verso gli altri in spirito di fratellanza. (in Italian there is "fraternità" too)
Toate fiinţele umane se nasc libere şi egale în demnitate şi în drepturi. Ele înzestraţe cu raţiune şi conştiinţă şi trebuie să se comporte unii faţă de altele în spiritul fraternităţii.
As one can see, Portuguese and Italian are very very similar while Romanian words have undergone too many phonetic changes and there are six different words in the Romanian text while only one is different (para vs. verso) if we compare the Italian and the Portuguese text.
This is such a small sample that it proves nothing.
Actually a related question has been disputed in the thread: "Romance language least related to Latin", and some postings there give some information about the topic.
With longer texts the difference between Romanian, on the one hand, and Portuguese, Italian, Spanish on the other hand, becomes bigger.
Do you have any measurements to back up this conclusion?
We can select texts in Romanian and in Portuguese/Spanish/Galician/Catalan, or we could make a list of frequent verbs, nouns, adjectives.
I'm able to understand a Spanish newscast without having ever studied Spanish (I studied Portuguese, but, as far as I remember, the objects of my study were, mostly grammar and pronunciation, not vocabulary) while I can't understand TVR programs.
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That depends on how you look at it.
Romanian, like Italian, belongs to the traditionally regarded as Eastern branch, meaning there are certain morphological and phonological resemblances between them. That makes some words closer between them because of evolution.
Romanian, like the West Iberian languages (and often Sardinian), are in the periphery. That makes part of the old Latin vocabulary that was innovated in the central area (French, Italian, Catalan) be preserved in both Romanian and Portuguese/Spanish. One can see that in the words for 'table', 'boil', 'bird', etc.
From the little I know, modern Romanian took many loanwords from French, so it is obvious that, regarding neologisms, it is possible that both are closer.
Last but not least, I find it funny the high number of coincidences too between Romanian and Catalan due to parallel evolution in some phonological features. Words common to both include, for instance, cap, joc, foc, meu, nou, ou, meu, suc, etc. Words like vaca sound the same because in both final unstressed a's sound like schwas. Etc.
Romanian, like Italian, belongs to the traditionally regarded as Eastern branch, meaning there are certain morphological and phonological resemblances between them. That makes some words closer between them because of evolution.
Romanian, like the West Iberian languages (and often Sardinian), are in the periphery. That makes part of the old Latin vocabulary that was innovated in the central area (French, Italian, Catalan) be preserved in both Romanian and Portuguese/Spanish. One can see that in the words for 'table', 'boil', 'bird', etc.
From the little I know, modern Romanian took many loanwords from French, so it is obvious that, regarding neologisms, it is possible that both are closer.
Last but not least, I find it funny the high number of coincidences too between Romanian and Catalan due to parallel evolution in some phonological features. Words common to both include, for instance, cap, joc, foc, meu, nou, ou, meu, suc, etc. Words like vaca sound the same because in both final unstressed a's sound like schwas. Etc.
Romanian is quite peculiar in the Romance family, there are a lot of things unique to Romanian and many loanwords from Slavic languages, obviously there are many words similar or identical to Italian, Spanish, Franch and Portuguese, even with Sardinian, expecially northern Sardinian, there are many words that surprisingly Romanian shares only with Sardinian, it seems to be a case of convergent evolution, because the two languages never had contacts during their history.
some example : Romanian-Sardinian
limba-limba (language, tongue)
apa-abba (water)
iapa-ebba (female horse)
acum-como (now)
cucuveaua-cuccumiàu (owlet)
şemineu-tziminéa (chimney, fireplace)
canapea-canapé (sofa)
a fura-furare (to steal)
pisică-pisittu (cat, in southern Sardinian)
unde-aundi (where, in southern Sardinian)
etc.etc.
Here the first article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in Portuguese, Sardinian, Italian and Romanian.
Todos os seres humanos nascem livres e iguais em dignidade e em direitos. Dotados de razão e de consciência, devem agir uns para com os outros em espírito de fraternidade.
Totus sos esseres humanos nàschen liberos e que pares in dignidade e in dirittos. Issos jùghen rejone e cuscienscia, e si dèven cumportare unu cun s'àteru cun ispíritu de fraternidade
Tutti gli esseri umani nascono liberi ed eguali in dignità e diritti. Essi sono dotati di ragione e di coscienza e devono agire gli uni verso gli altri in spirito di fratellanza. (in Italian there is "fraternità" too)
Toate fiinţele umane se nasc libere şi egale în demnitate şi în drepturi. Ele înzestraţe cu raţiune şi conştiinţă şi trebuie să se comporte unii faţă de altele în spiritul fraternităţii.
some example : Romanian-Sardinian
limba-limba (language, tongue)
apa-abba (water)
iapa-ebba (female horse)
acum-como (now)
cucuveaua-cuccumiàu (owlet)
şemineu-tziminéa (chimney, fireplace)
canapea-canapé (sofa)
a fura-furare (to steal)
pisică-pisittu (cat, in southern Sardinian)
unde-aundi (where, in southern Sardinian)
etc.etc.
Here the first article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in Portuguese, Sardinian, Italian and Romanian.
Todos os seres humanos nascem livres e iguais em dignidade e em direitos. Dotados de razão e de consciência, devem agir uns para com os outros em espírito de fraternidade.
Totus sos esseres humanos nàschen liberos e que pares in dignidade e in dirittos. Issos jùghen rejone e cuscienscia, e si dèven cumportare unu cun s'àteru cun ispíritu de fraternidade
Tutti gli esseri umani nascono liberi ed eguali in dignità e diritti. Essi sono dotati di ragione e di coscienza e devono agire gli uni verso gli altri in spirito di fratellanza. (in Italian there is "fraternità" too)
Toate fiinţele umane se nasc libere şi egale în demnitate şi în drepturi. Ele înzestraţe cu raţiune şi conştiinţă şi trebuie să se comporte unii faţă de altele în spiritul fraternităţii.
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A good tool for lexical comparison is the Swadesh list, specially designed so that all languages had names for the concepts included.
Here is a table with the Swadesh list for the major Romance languages (Catalan included). I've chosen the terms multiple by 5 and only the first, to make it simpler, even if it gets somehow less accurate.
Portuguese - Spanish - Catalan - French - Italian - Romanian
vós - vosotros - vosaltres - vous - voi - voi
ali - allí - allà - là - là - acolo
como - cómo - com - comment - come - cum
pouco - poco - poc - peu - poco - puțin
quatro - cuatro - quatre - quatre - quattro - patru
grosso - grueso - gruixut - gros - spesso - gros (pt, es, ca, fr)
magro - delgado - prim - maigre - sottile - subțire (it)
mulher - esposa - esposa - épouse - sposa - soție
peix - pez - peix - poisson - pesce - pește
verme - gusano - cuc - ver - verme - vierme (pt, fr, it)
semente - semilla - llavor - semence - semente - sămânță (pt, es, fr, it)
erva - hierba - herba - herbe - erba - iarbă
osso - hueso - os - os - osso - os
pluma - pluma - ploma - plume - piuma - fulg
nariz - nariz - nas - nez - naso - nas
pé - pie - peu - pied - pied - picior
ventre - vientre - ventre - ventre - ventre - burtă
coração - corazón - cor - cœur - cuore - inimă
chupar - chupar - xuclar - sucer - succhiare - suge (fr, it)
rir - reír - riure - rire - ridere - râde
cheirar - oler - olorar - sentir - sentire - mirosi
matar - matar - matar - tuer - uccidere - ucide (it)
partir - partir - partir - fendre - fendere - diviza
volar - volar - volar - voler - volare - zbura
estar - estar - estar - être - stare - sta
apertar - apretar - estrènyer - presser - spremere - merge
empurrar - empujar - empènyer - pousser - spingere - împinge (ca, it)
dizer - decir - dir - dire - dire - zice
gelar - congelar - gelar - geler - gelare - îngheța
água - agua - aigua - eau - acqua - apă
sal - sal - sal - sel - sale - sare
nuvem - nube - núvol - nuage - nuvola - nor
gelo - hielo - glaç - glace - ghiaccio - gheață
estrada - calle - carretera - route - strata - drum
branco - blanco - blanc - blanc - bianco - alb
quente - caliente - calent - chaud - caldo - cald
bom - bueno - bo - bon - buono - bun
redondo - redondo - rodó - rond - rotondo - rotund
seco - seco - sec - sec - secco - uscat
esquerdo - izquierdo - esquerre - gauche - sinistro - stâng
se - si - si - si - se - dacă
So, a completely unscientific ranking would be:
Italian: 6
French: 4
Portuguese: 3
Catalan: 2
Spanish: 2
Here is a table with the Swadesh list for the major Romance languages (Catalan included). I've chosen the terms multiple by 5 and only the first, to make it simpler, even if it gets somehow less accurate.
Portuguese - Spanish - Catalan - French - Italian - Romanian
vós - vosotros - vosaltres - vous - voi - voi
ali - allí - allà - là - là - acolo
como - cómo - com - comment - come - cum
pouco - poco - poc - peu - poco - puțin
quatro - cuatro - quatre - quatre - quattro - patru
grosso - grueso - gruixut - gros - spesso - gros (pt, es, ca, fr)
magro - delgado - prim - maigre - sottile - subțire (it)
mulher - esposa - esposa - épouse - sposa - soție
peix - pez - peix - poisson - pesce - pește
verme - gusano - cuc - ver - verme - vierme (pt, fr, it)
semente - semilla - llavor - semence - semente - sămânță (pt, es, fr, it)
erva - hierba - herba - herbe - erba - iarbă
osso - hueso - os - os - osso - os
pluma - pluma - ploma - plume - piuma - fulg
nariz - nariz - nas - nez - naso - nas
pé - pie - peu - pied - pied - picior
ventre - vientre - ventre - ventre - ventre - burtă
coração - corazón - cor - cœur - cuore - inimă
chupar - chupar - xuclar - sucer - succhiare - suge (fr, it)
rir - reír - riure - rire - ridere - râde
cheirar - oler - olorar - sentir - sentire - mirosi
matar - matar - matar - tuer - uccidere - ucide (it)
partir - partir - partir - fendre - fendere - diviza
volar - volar - volar - voler - volare - zbura
estar - estar - estar - être - stare - sta
apertar - apretar - estrènyer - presser - spremere - merge
empurrar - empujar - empènyer - pousser - spingere - împinge (ca, it)
dizer - decir - dir - dire - dire - zice
gelar - congelar - gelar - geler - gelare - îngheța
água - agua - aigua - eau - acqua - apă
sal - sal - sal - sel - sale - sare
nuvem - nube - núvol - nuage - nuvola - nor
gelo - hielo - glaç - glace - ghiaccio - gheață
estrada - calle - carretera - route - strata - drum
branco - blanco - blanc - blanc - bianco - alb
quente - caliente - calent - chaud - caldo - cald
bom - bueno - bo - bon - buono - bun
redondo - redondo - rodó - rond - rotondo - rotund
seco - seco - sec - sec - secco - uscat
esquerdo - izquierdo - esquerre - gauche - sinistro - stâng
se - si - si - si - se - dacă
So, a completely unscientific ranking would be:
Italian: 6
French: 4
Portuguese: 3
Catalan: 2
Spanish: 2
Anche grosso, magro, moglie, ammazzare e semenza.
Added Sardinian to the table
Portuguese - Spanish - Catalan - French - Italian - Romanian - Sardinian
vós - vosotros - vosaltres - vous - voi - voi - bóis
ali - allí - allà - là - là - acolo - in cue, in hie
como - cómo - com - comment - come - cum - comente (instead of Comente it's used "que" in comparative phrases)
pouco - poco - poc - peu - poco - puțin - pagu
quatro - cuatro - quatre - quatre - quattro - patru - bàttor
grosso - grueso - gruixut - gros - spesso - gros - russu
magro - delgado - prim - maigre - sottile - subțire - lanzu
mulher - esposa - esposa - épouse - sposa - soție - isposa, muzére
peix - pez - peix - poisson - pesce - pește - pische
verme - gusano - cuc - ver - verme - vierme - solde
semente - semilla - llavor - semence - semente - sămânță - sèmene, laòre, labore, lavore
erva - hierba - herba - herbe - erba - iarbă - erva
osso - hueso - os - os - osso - os - ossu
pluma - pluma - ploma - plume - piuma - fulg - puma
nariz - nariz - nas - nez - naso - nas - nasu, nare
pé - pie - peu - pied - pied - picior - pé
ventre - vientre - ventre - ventre - ventre - burtă - bentre, matta
coração - corazón - cor - cœur - cuore - inimă - coro
chupar - chupar - xuclar - sucer - succhiare - suge - sùere, suzzare
rir - reír - riure - rire - ridere - râde - ríere
cheirar - oler - olorar - sentir - sentire - mirosi - fiagare, fragare (Lat. "flagrare = to smell")
matar - matar - matar - tuer - uccidere - ucide - occhíre / occhídere, mazàre (to slaughter)
partir - partir - partir - fendre - fendere - diviza - ispartire, dividere
volar - volar - volar - voler - volare - zbura - bolare
estar - estar - estar - être - stare - sta - istare
apertar - apretar - estrènyer - presser - spremere - merge - trippiare, aprettare
empurrar - empujar - empènyer - pousser - spingere - împinge - ispínghere
dizer - decir - dir - dire - dire - zice - narrare, nàrrere
gelar - congelar - gelar - geler - gelare - îngheța - astrare, ghelare, helare, cungelare
água - agua - aigua - eau - acqua - apă - abba
sal - sal - sal - sel - sale - sare - sale
nuvem - nube - núvol - nuage - nuvola - nor - nue, nube, nuve
gelo - hielo - glaç - glace - ghiaccio - gheață - astrore, ghiacciu, ghelu, helu
estrada - calle - carretera - route - strata - drum - carrela, carrera, istrada
branco - blanco - blanc - blanc - bianco - alb - biancu, albu, alvu, arbu, arvu
quente - caliente - calent - chaud - caldo - cald - caldu
bom - bueno - bo - bon - buono - bun - bonu
redondo - redondo - rodó - rond - rotondo - rotund - rotundu, tundu
seco - seco - sec - sec - secco - uscat - siccu (the Romanian "uscat" reminds the Sardinian "usciadu or uscradu = charred, scorched"; Latin "ustilare or ustulare")
esquerdo - izquierdo - esquerre - gauche - sinistro - stâng - de manca
se - si - si - si - se - dacă - si - (the Romanian "dacă" is similar to the French "dés que = as soon as" and to Sardinian "da qui = as soon as, or when; just in affirmative phrases)
Portuguese - Spanish - Catalan - French - Italian - Romanian - Sardinian
vós - vosotros - vosaltres - vous - voi - voi - bóis
ali - allí - allà - là - là - acolo - in cue, in hie
como - cómo - com - comment - come - cum - comente (instead of Comente it's used "que" in comparative phrases)
pouco - poco - poc - peu - poco - puțin - pagu
quatro - cuatro - quatre - quatre - quattro - patru - bàttor
grosso - grueso - gruixut - gros - spesso - gros - russu
magro - delgado - prim - maigre - sottile - subțire - lanzu
mulher - esposa - esposa - épouse - sposa - soție - isposa, muzére
peix - pez - peix - poisson - pesce - pește - pische
verme - gusano - cuc - ver - verme - vierme - solde
semente - semilla - llavor - semence - semente - sămânță - sèmene, laòre, labore, lavore
erva - hierba - herba - herbe - erba - iarbă - erva
osso - hueso - os - os - osso - os - ossu
pluma - pluma - ploma - plume - piuma - fulg - puma
nariz - nariz - nas - nez - naso - nas - nasu, nare
pé - pie - peu - pied - pied - picior - pé
ventre - vientre - ventre - ventre - ventre - burtă - bentre, matta
coração - corazón - cor - cœur - cuore - inimă - coro
chupar - chupar - xuclar - sucer - succhiare - suge - sùere, suzzare
rir - reír - riure - rire - ridere - râde - ríere
cheirar - oler - olorar - sentir - sentire - mirosi - fiagare, fragare (Lat. "flagrare = to smell")
matar - matar - matar - tuer - uccidere - ucide - occhíre / occhídere, mazàre (to slaughter)
partir - partir - partir - fendre - fendere - diviza - ispartire, dividere
volar - volar - volar - voler - volare - zbura - bolare
estar - estar - estar - être - stare - sta - istare
apertar - apretar - estrènyer - presser - spremere - merge - trippiare, aprettare
empurrar - empujar - empènyer - pousser - spingere - împinge - ispínghere
dizer - decir - dir - dire - dire - zice - narrare, nàrrere
gelar - congelar - gelar - geler - gelare - îngheța - astrare, ghelare, helare, cungelare
água - agua - aigua - eau - acqua - apă - abba
sal - sal - sal - sel - sale - sare - sale
nuvem - nube - núvol - nuage - nuvola - nor - nue, nube, nuve
gelo - hielo - glaç - glace - ghiaccio - gheață - astrore, ghiacciu, ghelu, helu
estrada - calle - carretera - route - strata - drum - carrela, carrera, istrada
branco - blanco - blanc - blanc - bianco - alb - biancu, albu, alvu, arbu, arvu
quente - caliente - calent - chaud - caldo - cald - caldu
bom - bueno - bo - bon - buono - bun - bonu
redondo - redondo - rodó - rond - rotondo - rotund - rotundu, tundu
seco - seco - sec - sec - secco - uscat - siccu (the Romanian "uscat" reminds the Sardinian "usciadu or uscradu = charred, scorched"; Latin "ustilare or ustulare")
esquerdo - izquierdo - esquerre - gauche - sinistro - stâng - de manca
se - si - si - si - se - dacă - si - (the Romanian "dacă" is similar to the French "dés que = as soon as" and to Sardinian "da qui = as soon as, or when; just in affirmative phrases)
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So interesting to see that the Latin 'comprimere' (= to squeeze) is now 'to compress' that is, 'a comprima' in Romanian, and I suppose it has the same meaning in Portuguese, Spanish and French, too.
Though we may have borrowed the latter from French, it is quite intriguing the way Latin via the Romance languages under discussion seems to preserve freshness and modernity.
Though we may have borrowed the latter from French, it is quite intriguing the way Latin via the Romance languages under discussion seems to preserve freshness and modernity.
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Hmm...some of the Romanian examples here seem incorrect or misplaced. Made some minor corrections and comments above.
Thanks! It seems Sardinian is farther from Romanian than Italian, perhaps due to some unique words, but that's just my impression.
You're right to point it out. As I said I just took the first word and ignored the other ones which may be more common. I have no idea of Romanian and my Italian is quite rusty. If you wish you can edit the linked Wiktionary page.
Except some words that are found only in Romanian and Sardinian, the two languages are really different; Sardinian it's in the middle between Iberic and Italic languages, but it doesn't belong neither to Italic nor to Iberic group, but to its own Insular Romance group
see map
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Western_and_Eastern_Romania.PNG
see map
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Western_and_Eastern_Romania.PNG
I sometimes use Aromanian (for work), and there's a good answer to the OP.
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Important question, indeed. The answer cannot be given by giving some examples of similar words from Romanian and N other Romance languages, while most of the Romance languages have suffered a process called "re-Latinization" during last 200 years.
The most volatile part of a language is it's lexicon - there is an internal "competition" between words with similar meaning or between synonimes inside a language and from this competition sometimes neologisms enter the daily vocabulary, while other words become archaisms.
I think that when comparing Romanian to other Romance languages we should compare phonetic rules that govern the evolution of Latin-inherited words, grammatical features and so.
And we enter in the area of historical evolution of a language, where linguists observed some patterns ("linguistic rules") which could explain most (90% or so) of the evolution of a word.
With that in mind I state that the closest Romance language to Romanian is Italian.
I will list some common features of the historical evolution of those languages that are unique to them and differentiates them from other Romance groups.
1) Masculine plural ending in -i. E.g.: Rom. lupi, It. lupi. Compare to: Sp. lobos, Fr. loups.
Also, Romanian makes use of a lot of plural ending in -uri (from Latin -ora, e.g. Lat. tempus/tempora), and some Italian dialects do have this plural ending present.
2) Verbs conjugation, 2nd person ending in -i:
Rom. a vedea ("to see"): eu vad, tu vezi, el vede
It. vedere: io vedo, tu vedi, egli vede
Compare to Sp. ver: io veo, tu ves, el ve
2) Latin groups [ce], [ci] (also [cae]) are pronounced the same in Romanian and Italian: [tʃ], like tch in English witch.
Compare to French, Spanish [ce] [ci] pronounced as [se], [si], while Sardinian is the only Romance language that retained the original Latin pronunciation of them: [ke], [ki].
3) Similar phonetic rules in Romanian and Italian:
3.1) Latin [CL+Vowel] > Rom. [CHI+Wovel], It. [CHI+Wovel].
E.g. Lat clarus > Rom. chiar, It. chiaro (compare to Sp. claro),
Lat. oculus > VL *oclus > Rom. ochi, It. occhio (compare to Sp. ojo, Fr. oeil)
But what is Romanian and what is Italian?
Literary Romanian is based on the Romanian dialect (accent) spoken in Bucharest and surrounding area, while on Romanian territory there are regions with different accents, with regional words and so on. Romanian linguists do not accept the idea of many Romanian dialects in Romania, just many accents ('graiuri').
Literary Italian is based on Tuscan dialect (used by Dante Alighieri in his writings) with enough changes to differentiate Italian from Tuscan dialect spoken in Florence.
We know that in Italian peninsula there is a dialectum continuum that makes people in nearby regions to mutually understand their mother dialects, but makes almost incomprehensible the dialects from South with the ones from North.
According to some Romanian linguists (Rosetti and other) from these multitude of Italian dialects Romanian language is closest to the southern dialects, Pugliese is among them.
Out of topic:
- Romanian language has a strong Slavic influence (wether today Romanians like it or not!) and a Slavic ad-stratum (Slavic loanwords that replaced some Latin-inherited words)
- Slavic influence is present in phonetics (diphtongs -ea, -ia, -oa, etc.), vocabulary (the ad-stratum), grammar (feminine vocative ending in -o, etc.) etc.
The most volatile part of a language is it's lexicon - there is an internal "competition" between words with similar meaning or between synonimes inside a language and from this competition sometimes neologisms enter the daily vocabulary, while other words become archaisms.
I think that when comparing Romanian to other Romance languages we should compare phonetic rules that govern the evolution of Latin-inherited words, grammatical features and so.
And we enter in the area of historical evolution of a language, where linguists observed some patterns ("linguistic rules") which could explain most (90% or so) of the evolution of a word.
With that in mind I state that the closest Romance language to Romanian is Italian.
I will list some common features of the historical evolution of those languages that are unique to them and differentiates them from other Romance groups.
1) Masculine plural ending in -i. E.g.: Rom. lupi, It. lupi. Compare to: Sp. lobos, Fr. loups.
Also, Romanian makes use of a lot of plural ending in -uri (from Latin -ora, e.g. Lat. tempus/tempora), and some Italian dialects do have this plural ending present.
2) Verbs conjugation, 2nd person ending in -i:
Rom. a vedea ("to see"): eu vad, tu vezi, el vede
It. vedere: io vedo, tu vedi, egli vede
Compare to Sp. ver: io veo, tu ves, el ve
2) Latin groups [ce], [ci] (also [cae]) are pronounced the same in Romanian and Italian: [tʃ], like tch in English witch.
Compare to French, Spanish [ce] [ci] pronounced as [se], [si], while Sardinian is the only Romance language that retained the original Latin pronunciation of them: [ke], [ki].
3) Similar phonetic rules in Romanian and Italian:
3.1) Latin [CL+Vowel] > Rom. [CHI+Wovel], It. [CHI+Wovel].
E.g. Lat clarus > Rom. chiar, It. chiaro (compare to Sp. claro),
Lat. oculus > VL *oclus > Rom. ochi, It. occhio (compare to Sp. ojo, Fr. oeil)
But what is Romanian and what is Italian?
Literary Romanian is based on the Romanian dialect (accent) spoken in Bucharest and surrounding area, while on Romanian territory there are regions with different accents, with regional words and so on. Romanian linguists do not accept the idea of many Romanian dialects in Romania, just many accents ('graiuri').
Literary Italian is based on Tuscan dialect (used by Dante Alighieri in his writings) with enough changes to differentiate Italian from Tuscan dialect spoken in Florence.
We know that in Italian peninsula there is a dialectum continuum that makes people in nearby regions to mutually understand their mother dialects, but makes almost incomprehensible the dialects from South with the ones from North.
According to some Romanian linguists (Rosetti and other) from these multitude of Italian dialects Romanian language is closest to the southern dialects, Pugliese is among them.
Out of topic:
- Romanian language has a strong Slavic influence (wether today Romanians like it or not!) and a Slavic ad-stratum (Slavic loanwords that replaced some Latin-inherited words)
- Slavic influence is present in phonetics (diphtongs -ea, -ia, -oa, etc.), vocabulary (the ad-stratum), grammar (feminine vocative ending in -o, etc.) etc.
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Very interesting, but the answer to the question posed by the thread is, as I stated in my post above, AROMANIAN. Aromanian is easily the closest 'Latin' language to Romanian.
Well, there is a debate if Aromanian is a language separated from Romanian or is a Romanian dialect.
The same question is asked in Italy if, for example, Neapolitan is a language separated from Italian or is a Italian dialect.
In Italy the linguists still consider Napolitan as an Italian dialect, while some Napolitan nationalists consider it a language (recognized by UNESCO or some international organism).
In my opinion, despite the fact that Romanian and Aromanian are NOT mutually understandable (but with some training I was able to understand much of the first movie spoken in Aromanian, released few years ago), they are two dialects of the same language (they both have evolved from proto-Romanian).
If I go by your logic, I don't know which of the 3 Romance languages(?) spoken South of Danube are closer to (Daco-)Romanian:
Istro-Romanian, Aromanian or Megleno-Romanian.
Note that these languages do not have an official organism to regulate them (something equivalent to Romanian Academy).
Aromanian has a North and a South sub-dialects with considerable differences between them.
You could hardly find a dictionary online for Aromanian (the one I found seems made by amateurs) and virtually none for Istro-Romanian.
P.S.
I remember I have seen once the sentence:
"Lingua italiana e una convenzione"
meaning that Italian is indeed based on Tuscan dialect, but this language has been "modelled" during last 150 years to become a lingua franca in the entire Italian peninsula.
And if you look at an Italian movie and understand more than from an Aromanian poem is because Italian language is much more promoted and heard all over the world than a spoken (and very rarely written or published) language like Aromanian.
Post Post Scriptum
I am confident that some intellectuals at Chisinau (R. of Moldova) would argue that Moldovan is the closest language to Romanian.
The same question is asked in Italy if, for example, Neapolitan is a language separated from Italian or is a Italian dialect.
In Italy the linguists still consider Napolitan as an Italian dialect, while some Napolitan nationalists consider it a language (recognized by UNESCO or some international organism).
In my opinion, despite the fact that Romanian and Aromanian are NOT mutually understandable (but with some training I was able to understand much of the first movie spoken in Aromanian, released few years ago), they are two dialects of the same language (they both have evolved from proto-Romanian).
If I go by your logic, I don't know which of the 3 Romance languages(?) spoken South of Danube are closer to (Daco-)Romanian:
Istro-Romanian, Aromanian or Megleno-Romanian.
Note that these languages do not have an official organism to regulate them (something equivalent to Romanian Academy).
Aromanian has a North and a South sub-dialects with considerable differences between them.
You could hardly find a dictionary online for Aromanian (the one I found seems made by amateurs) and virtually none for Istro-Romanian.
P.S.
I remember I have seen once the sentence:
"Lingua italiana e una convenzione"
meaning that Italian is indeed based on Tuscan dialect, but this language has been "modelled" during last 150 years to become a lingua franca in the entire Italian peninsula.
And if you look at an Italian movie and understand more than from an Aromanian poem is because Italian language is much more promoted and heard all over the world than a spoken (and very rarely written or published) language like Aromanian.
Post Post Scriptum
I am confident that some intellectuals at Chisinau (R. of Moldova) would argue that Moldovan is the closest language to Romanian.
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There are good reasons to call Aromanian a language that do not apply to Istro-Romanian, Megleno-Romanian or even Moldovan, and I'm sure you're aware of these. I don't think this is the place to get into a discussion of what is or isn't a language/dialect, but I will say a couple of things: (1) the opinion of intellectuals is one criterion that should never be counted! (2) if the existence of an academy or even a halfway decent dictionary were a precondition, there would be very few languages left in the world!
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If we base this comparison on "vocalic plurals" and "affricates", this is what makes Western-Romance (French, Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan) different from Eastern-Romance (Italian, Romanian).
But these similarities are compensated by other differences.
As for phonology:
Portuguese, Spanish, Italian vs. Romanian:
terra, terra, terra [t] vs. [ts] ţară
dez, diez, dieci [d] vs. [z] zece
seis, seis, sei [s] vs. [ʃ] șase
lebre, liebre, lepre [l] vs. [j] iepure
pelo, pelo, pelo [l] vs. păr [r]
quatro, cuatro, quattro [kw] vs [p] patru
casa (BP), casa, casa [a] vs. casă [ə]
lago [u], lago, lago [o] vs. [-] lac
As for vocabulary, Italian is more similar to French and Spanish than to Romanian.
Western-Romance and Italian have proclitic definite articles and no case system while Romanian has enclitic articles and case system.
So, among the national official languages, Italian is the least different but at the same time Italian is more similar to Spanish and Portuguese than to Romanian.
But these similarities are compensated by other differences.
As for phonology:
Portuguese, Spanish, Italian vs. Romanian:
terra, terra, terra [t] vs. [ts] ţară
dez, diez, dieci [d] vs. [z] zece
seis, seis, sei [s] vs. [ʃ] șase
lebre, liebre, lepre [l] vs. [j] iepure
pelo, pelo, pelo [l] vs. păr [r]
quatro, cuatro, quattro [kw] vs [p] patru
casa (BP), casa, casa [a] vs. casă [ə]
lago [u], lago, lago [o] vs. [-] lac
As for vocabulary, Italian is more similar to French and Spanish than to Romanian.
Western-Romance and Italian have proclitic definite articles and no case system while Romanian has enclitic articles and case system.
So, among the national official languages, Italian is the least different but at the same time Italian is more similar to Spanish and Portuguese than to Romanian.
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Yes, Nino, we were discussing what is the closest Romance language to Romanian and I enumerated few arguments that came to my mind and we both came to same conclusion: Italian.
And from Italian dialects I read the Pugliese one is the closest to Romanian (although I don't know this dialect). I read Pugliese has a [ə] ending for certain categories of words, like Romanian [ə] ending for feminines.
I agree that the closest Romance language to Italian is not Romanian.
As for the rest, if Aromanian is a language - I agree it is closer to Romanian than Italian from obvious reasons:
- Aromanian and (Daco-)Romanian have proto-Romanian as common ancestor, while Romanian and Italian have Vulgar Latin as common ancestor.
And from Italian dialects I read the Pugliese one is the closest to Romanian (although I don't know this dialect). I read Pugliese has a [ə] ending for certain categories of words, like Romanian [ə] ending for feminines.
I agree that the closest Romance language to Italian is not Romanian.
As for the rest, if Aromanian is a language - I agree it is closer to Romanian than Italian from obvious reasons:
- Aromanian and (Daco-)Romanian have proto-Romanian as common ancestor, while Romanian and Italian have Vulgar Latin as common ancestor.
Exactly what I was about to say. The question was which Romance language is closest to Romanian, not which Romance language is the Italian closest to.
I really wonder about the studies (not lists of words), if there are any, written by historians and linguists, on which we can rely to say which Romance language is the closest to my language and why?!
Can anyone provide those studies here?
Thanks.
Can anyone provide those studies here?
Thanks.
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Thanks for the link - I was going to look for it to post myself. I also use Tiberius Cunia's excellent 1100-page, modern quadrilingual 'Dictsiunar a Limbãljei Armãneascã' (Editura Cartea Aromãnã, 2010 - available free online). If Aromanian isn't a language on that basis, then there's a lot of fraudulent ones at large.
Yes, Armânians/Machidoneans seem to be a distinct population coming from Macopole. The reputable footballer Hagi whom we all love is a proud Romanian Machidonean.
It is the influence those two languages, including Albanian possibly via Armânian, had to each other that made some folklorists say that Armânian is a Romanian dialect. And we've been taught this history at school.
However, a possible clear-cut distinction between language and dialect is still at heavy debate so...
I wonder if the vowel 'o' wasn't introduced on purpose to create such debates, which would but prove a similar confusion when the rrom word was artificially created a decade ago!
As we can see, huge migration influences languages enormously for long time spans. And soon, we'll all borrow new words...
It is the influence those two languages, including Albanian possibly via Armânian, had to each other that made some folklorists say that Armânian is a Romanian dialect. And we've been taught this history at school.
However, a possible clear-cut distinction between language and dialect is still at heavy debate so...
I wonder if the vowel 'o' wasn't introduced on purpose to create such debates, which would but prove a similar confusion when the rrom word was artificially created a decade ago!
As we can see, huge migration influences languages enormously for long time spans. And soon, we'll all borrow new words...
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Yes, I was pointing out that the relation was not bidirectional, due to the simple fact that there is a wide piece of land called Romània submersa, where Slavic languages are spoken, that broke the dialect continuum and mutual influence for centuries.
To be scientifically accurate one should know two things in advance: the number of Romance languages and the objective method to measure the closeness of two languages. Two things that remain vague or debatable, so no answer will be correct. Even serious studies about it will focus either in diachronicity, comparing language evolution, or modern convergence, usually comparing words or features chosen for the modern standards, resulting in an incomplete picture of the matter.
So in my opinion, if we limit the question to the six major standardized ones, out of Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, French and Italian, the latter is the closest in general to Romanian, even if, as has been said, Italian is still much closer to any of the Western ones than to Romanian.
So in my opinion, if we limit the question to the six major standardized ones, out of Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, French and Italian, the latter is the closest in general to Romanian, even if, as has been said, Italian is still much closer to any of the Western ones than to Romanian.
Can you please indicate a reliable source that states that the diphtongs -ea, -ia, -oa are the result of slavic influence?
I was wrong, I apologize.
Bulgarian has a similar "Umlaut" feature like Romanian:
мляко/mlyako ("milk") has a diphthong, while млечен/mlechen ("milky") has no diphthong at all. The diphthongation is conditioned both in Romanian and Bulgarian by the open vowel present in the next syllable.
But this does not imply the Romanian imported it from Bulgarian.
Sorry for my mistake, it was written in rush.
Bulgarian has a similar "Umlaut" feature like Romanian:
мляко/mlyako ("milk") has a diphthong, while млечен/mlechen ("milky") has no diphthong at all. The diphthongation is conditioned both in Romanian and Bulgarian by the open vowel present in the next syllable.
But this does not imply the Romanian imported it from Bulgarian.
Sorry for my mistake, it was written in rush.