When פ changes from "f" to "p" and viceversa. Same for כ.

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Avifrisz

Senior Member
spanish
שלום לכולם.

I need to learn when the letter פ changes from "f" to "p" and viceversa as well as the letter כ when changes from "k" to "ch"or"kh" and viceversa.

.תודה רבה​
 
  • מנחם

    Member
    English, Canada
    Hi,

    For פ, remember that when it is in the beginning of word, it has a P sound. Usually when it is in the midst of the word it has an F sound. There are a number of exceptions to the second rule, like כיפור (kipoor) for example.

    In general, these are the letters that take an inflection/daghesh at the beginning of a word:

    "בגד כפת"

    אני מקוה שנתתי עזרה טובה :)

    - מנחם
     

    Avifrisz

    Senior Member
    spanish
    !שלום מנחם

    Thanks for the explanation, but could you tell me if there is a website to find more explanations about the the letters that take an inflection/daghes (בגד כפת).

    !תודה רבה מאוד ולהתראות
     

    amikama

    a mi modo
    עברית
    Avifrisz said:
    I need to learn when the letter פ changes from "f" to "p" and viceversa as well as the letter כ when changes from "k" to "ch"or"kh" and viceversa.
    When the letters have a dagesh inside them:
    פּ = p, פ = f
    כּ = k, כ = kh

    There are two kinds of dagesh (both marked by a dot inside the letter):
    (1) Dagesh kal: This is the dagesh that appears in the letters בגד כפת in two cases:
    (i) in the beginning of the word: בּית, גּדול, דּג, כּפית, פּעמון, תּנור
    (ii) after shva nakh, i.e. when בגד כפת is the first letter in the syllable after a consonant:
    מִכְתָּב (mikh-tav), מַשְׁבֵּר (mash-ber), מִסְכֵּן (mis-ken)
    (2) Dagesh khazak: This is the dagesh that appears in all the letters of the Hebrew alphabet except for the letters אהחער, and its role is to double the consonant:
    מַתָּנָה (mattana), מַסָּע (massa'), נִקּוּד (nikkud).
     

    Avifrisz

    Senior Member
    spanish
    Shalom Amikama.

    Thanks a lot for your help. I appreciate it.

    I need your help for another question.

    How does the vocal שוא (sheva) affects the פ and כ letters changing them from "f" to "p" and from "k" to "ch", respectively?

    .תודה רבה ולהתראות
     

    3omer Sharabi al Yahoud

    New Member
    Born in Ceuta Spanish-Mauruecos live in NY
    Avifrisz said:
    שלום לכולם.

    I need to learn when the letter פ changes from "f" to "p" and viceversa as well as the letter כ when changes from "k" to "ch"or"kh" and viceversa.


    .תודה רבה​
    in bible hebrew these called Begadkepat letters others that change in bible is
    Gimmel becomes Ghimmel GH like israeli resh
    Dalet become Dhalth like the TH in word this(but not heavy TH in word Thin)
    Taw becomes Thaw (like Th in word Thin)
    over time people got lazy but no one lost knowladge,sadiagaaon wrote about how to espeak proper hebrew
     

    Hannielou

    New Member
    USA (English)
    Hi! In case you're looking for a way to remember which is an "f" and which is a "p," a teacher taught me this trick a really long time ago and I still use it...

    When a פ has a dot, it has a "penny," thus it makes a "p" sound.
    When a פ does not have a dot, it is "free" and makes an "f" sound.

    I'm not a Hebrew expert or anything, but that's how I remember it.

    - Hannah
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    But in the word אַרְכִיּוֹן ("archive") the letter כ does not have a דגש קל‎ even though it's preceded by a letter with a שוא.
     

    radagasty

    Senior Member
    Australia, Cantonese
    How does the vocal שוא (sheva) affects the פ and כ letters changing them from "f" to "p" and from "k" to "ch", respectively?
    A dagesh over a vocal schwa can only be a dagesh forte, and must therefore be pronounced as a geminated stop, thus, for example:
    מִפְּנֵי /mippənê/ vs. לִפְנֵי /lifnê/
    שִׁכְּרוּ /šikkərû/ vs. שָֽׁכְרוּ /šākᴴrû/
     

    Drink

    Senior Member
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    A dagesh over a vocal schwa can only be a dagesh forte, and must therefore be pronounced as a geminated stop, thus, for example:
    מִפְּנֵי /mippənê/ vs. לִפְנֵי /lifnê/
    שִׁכְּרוּ /šikkərû/ vs. שָֽׁכְרוּ /šākᴴrû/
    You described this rule incorrectly. It has nothing to do with the shva. Rather, a dagesh after a vowel is what indicates that it's a dagesh forte (with some exceptions).
     

    radagasty

    Senior Member
    Australia, Cantonese
    Rather, a dagesh after a vowel is what indicates that it's a dagesh forte (with some exceptions).
    Yes, it has just occurred to me that a dagesh lene can occur over a vocal schwa at the beginning of a word, hence:

    עַל־פְּנֵי /ʿal-pənê/
    מִפְּנֵי /mippənê/
    לִפְנֵי /lifnê/

    In the middle of a word, however, what I said stands: a dagesh over a vocal schwa can only be a dagesh forte.
     

    Drink

    Senior Member
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    Yes, it has just occurred to me that a dagesh lene can occur over a vocal schwa at the beginning of a word, hence:

    עַל־פְּנֵי /ʿal-pənê/
    מִפְּנֵי /mippənê/
    לִפְנֵי /lifnê/

    In the middle of a word, however, what I said stands: a dagesh over a vocal schwa can only be a dagesh forte.
    No, that is still not true. It only applies after a vowel. That's the only criterion.

    For example, שִׁכֵּר has a dagesh forte, and no shva, while יִשְׂכְּרוּ has a vocal shva but a dagesh lene.
     
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