When does a "d" become a english "j" sound?

  • Vanda

    Moderesa de Beagá
    Português/ Brasil
    Yes and no. Some regions do say /djia/ like mine, but not all of them. We have discussed something about this before, I'm looking for it.

    You can read about it here under the subtitle PROBABLE ERRORS WITH CONSONANTS: letter B.

    BTW, you should read the entire page, it'll help you a lot (it's in English and Portuguese).
     

    matthawk127

    Member
    English, United States
    Olá, ouvi falar que o sotaque de Recife é bem diferente de os sotaques de outros lugares no Brasil...e que até outros brasileiros é difícil lhes entender...por quê?
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    matthawk127 said:
    Olá, ouvi falar que o sotaque de Recife é bem diferente de os sotaques de outros lugares no Brasil...e que até outros brasileiros é difícil lhes entender...por quê?

    Can this be translated into Spanish? I am having a little bit a trouble...
     

    Vanda

    Moderesa de Beagá
    Português/ Brasil
    He says he's heard how Recife ( a state) native's accent is different from the other states accents and that some Brazilians find it hard to understand.

    Well, Matthawk I don't think so. For us (I mean people in my region), the South accent is harder to understand at first. I had some difficult when I first went to Rio Grande do Sul. Maybe for a Southern the Northeast accent might be harder. Well, Ronan is from the South, he can tell us. Probably it has to do with regions. People responding differently for different accents. Let's see what the others have to say.


    oops, you said Spanish, not English.:eek:
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    panjabigator said:
    I think in the word cidade (city?) and in dia, correct?
    The "d" in "dia" and the second "d" in "cidade" are indeed pronounced like an English "j" by many Brazilians. Was your doubt about those two words?
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    The sound /d/ becomes [dj] before the vowel /i/. (The technical term for this is "palatalization".) But this vowel may be written with the letter "i", as in "dia", or with the letter "e", as in "cidade".

    Also, an /i/ is sometimes inserted between difficult consonant clusters, in which case it isn't written down; for example, the word "advogado" may be pronounced [adjivogadu], to break up the cluster /dv/.

    In Portugal, /d/ is not palatalized before /i/.
     
    Vanda said:
    He says he's heard how Recife ( a state) native's accent is different from the other states accents and that some Brazilians find it hard to understand.
    Vanda, you meant to say Recife is a city in the state of Pernambuco, right? :) Actually for me, not being a native, I had a hard time understanding someone from the interior part of Pernambuco. This person was in the cast of "Big Brother Brasil." I guess it was a combination of the way she pronounced things and the expressions she used that made it difficult for me to understand her. Actually, I still have difficulty understanding spoken Portuguese...lol but with her, I had more difficulty.
     
    panjabigator said:
    I was curious to know if the pronunciation difference arose only after E's and I's. So this is not done in Portugal I take it.
    I guess one way to look at it, elaborating on what Outsider said in his post, is to palatalize the "d" before "e” whenever the “e” is pronounced like "i." A general rule is that "e" is pronounced like an "i" when it is unstressed, but there’s always an exception. It also depends on the accent. For example, "desesperado" depending on the accent is pronounced like "djizisperadu." "T" is also palatalized before “i” and it sounds like Spanish “ch.”
     

    Vanda

    Moderesa de Beagá
    Português/ Brasil
    Hahaha, essa foi boa. Já transformei Recife em estado! Só falta fazer o mesmo com Belo Horizonte! E eu nem tinha reparado...
     

    defo

    New Member
    english , egypt
    thanx alot but i am an egyption guy and i want it more simple please i can't understand what you are gave to us but thanx
     

    ronanpoirier

    Senior Member
    Brazil - Portuguese
    It's nice to remember that in the dialects that happen this (d - dj , t - tch), the same happens to L and N.
    L - LH (Like Italian GL)
    N - Ñ (Like Spanish Ñ)

    But it's like D and T, it's only the sound. The spelling keeps being the same.
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    Mi amiga es estadounidense, y su nombre es Tina. Ella fue a Brasil dos o tres veces y me dijo que alla ellos la llaman "china." Este puede ser otro diferencia fonetica...quizas el cambio de "t" a "tch" verdad?
     

    ronanpoirier

    Senior Member
    Brazil - Portuguese
    D, T, L and N always change their sounds to DJ, TCH, LH and Ñ before I or E (when it sounds like /i/ or /j/ or an almost mute /e/). They also change their sounds when they are before another consonant or at the end of a word. (That's why many brazilians may say "what" like "watch") But this is not a general rule. When I'm saying "advogado" the "d" doesn't have any sound, but the tongue and the mouth are placed like if a "dj" would be coming out. So there's just a stop in the middle of the word. But it's not everybody who does that. So the best way is adding /i/ or /j/ to the consonant. You'll be perfectly understood.
     

    ronanpoirier

    Senior Member
    Brazil - Portuguese
    Oh ya! About that I said before, That doesn't apply to L or N since L before another consonant or at the end of a word would sound like /w/ and and N would nasalize the vowel behind it.
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    panjabigator said:
    Es la letra "d" dental o palatal? No me parece como la de espan~ol.
    O que quer dizer com "palatal"? E quais as diferenças que nota entre a pronúncia do "d" nas duas línguas?
     

    Tomby

    Senior Member
    Spanish/Catalan
    Outsider, penso que o nosso colega se refere o "d" dalgumas palavras com sotaque brasileiro. :confused:
    Por exemplo, "bom dia!", em Portugal pronuncia-se "dia" [com "d"]e no Brasil há tendência a pronunciar "gia", quase com o um só de "g".
    Peço desculpas se não for assim.
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    Outsider said:
    O que quer dizer com "palatal"? E quais as diferenças que nota entre a pronúncia do "d" nas duas línguas?

    Quizas me equivoque con le terminologia. Quise preguntar donde va la lengua cuando se produce la letra "d" en portuguese. En espan~ol, se produce este sonido con la lengua detras de los dientes.
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    Tombatossals said:
    Outsider, penso que o nosso colega se refere o "d" dalgumas palavras com sotaque brasileiro. :confused:
    Por exemplo, "bom dia!", em Portugal pronuncia-se "dia" [com "d"]e no Brasil há tendência a pronunciar "gia", quase com o um só de "g".
    Peço desculpas se não for assim.

    Tal vez sea una cuestion del acento...solamente se algunas diferencias entre las regiones.
     

    vince

    Senior Member
    English
    di [di] becomes like English "gee" [ʤi]

    ti [ti] becomes like English "chee" [ʧi]

    A similar effect ("palatization") happens in Quebecois French:
    di [di] becomes [ʣi]
    ti [ti] becomes [ʦi]
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    I agree with Chriszinho. I notice no significant difference between the Spanish pronunciation and the Portuguese pronunciation, with the exception of the palatalization before /i/.
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Chriszinho85 said:
    A general rule is that "e" is pronounced like an "i" when it is unstressed, but there’s always an exception. It also depends on the accent. For example, "desesperado" depending on the accent is pronounced like "djizisperadu."
    Acho que o que acontece nesse caso é que a palavra "desesperado" é analisada como composta pelo falante, des + esperado. Então, o e de des pronuncia-se por fazer parte de um prefixo átono, e o primeiro e de esperado pronuncia-se porque a palavra começa por es +consoante.
     

    sjofre

    Senior Member
    Portuguese, Portugal
    Panjabigator, In Portugal the "d" always sounds as "d", and the "t" always as "t". Those differences you are refering only apply in Brasilian Portuguese. In Portugal your friends name is Tina and not Tchina ;).

    However there are some Brasilian states where those differents don't happen.
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    Does it happen in São Paulo Rio de Janiero, or Brasilia? I also have a friend whose mother is from a Dutch community in a place called Holambra (I think). Does this phonetic change happen there?

    One thing I do understand is that the D is dental except for when it is followed by an "i"; then there is palatization.
     

    ronanpoirier

    Senior Member
    Brazil - Portuguese
    I think that (palatization) happens in all the big cities here in Brazil.
    Here in Rio Grande do Sul, in Porto Alegre and the towns around, people speak like that. However in places which have a big number of Italian people, that doesn't happen. The same to the border areas with Uruguay and Argentina. Of course that people who used to live there and then comes to Porto Alegre will keep talking like that. It's perfectly understable. In Santa Catarina people usually don't palatize, which makes me nervous hehehe but I make them nervous saying "tri" everywhere. :)
     

    Vanda

    Moderesa de Beagá
    Português/ Brasil
    Yeah, that happens in Holambra. Remember that is a Dutch community besides being incrustaded in São Paulo city. What I mean is, there is a lot of foreign influence in their speech. Most of all foreigners communities were settled in Sao Paulo first and contributed to its particular pronunciation. I've heard there are people in Holambra that can barely speak Pt.
     

    Ajura

    Senior Member
    English
    It is the main reason why names like Luigi sometimes get spelled as Luidi in Brazillian Portuguese.
     
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    coolbrowne

    Senior Member
    Português-BR/English-US bilingual
    That doesn't sound right :eek:
    Yeah, that happens in Holambra. Remember that is a Dutch community besides being incrustaded in São Paulo city.
    I believe Holambra is located due north from Campinas, which puts it at more than 100km from the city of São Paulo.

    Regards
     

    mintaslanxor

    New Member
    English
    I was very surprised when I found out that foreign names ending in a d or t are assumed to have an invisible e after these final letters and are therefore pronounced jee or chee. An example is the well-known Arab-Brazilian Assad musical family, whose surname is pronounced ah-SAH-jee. My assumption is that standard Brazilian Portuguese pronunciation doesn't suffer consonants at the end of the word, so they add a vowel in the form of an e. I think this happens with any word ending in a consonant. Can someone elaborate?
     

    guihenning

    Senior Member
    Português do Brasil
    Many consonants when in syllabic coda do get an "e" added to them in Brazilian Portuguese (pronounced like the "i" in "bit") because Portuguese doesn't allow many of these word/syllable-final consonants. "d" isn't allowed at the end of a word, so Brazilians will mostly add an epenthetic vowel to foreign words in order to bypass the original language's phonotactic rules and use the Portuguese's instead.
     

    Ithilien

    Member
    Português
    Not only words ending in consonants have this additional <e>, but in all syllabs ending in obstruent consonants (c/q/k, g, p, b, t, d, f and v); it's just more noticeable with <t, d> because the sound change to <ch, j>. Slavic word <vodka, vodca> is pronounced soemthing like VOH-jee-kah (in IPA transcription, [ˈvɔd͡ʒɪkɐ]), eg.

    It also depends of speaker, some people (but not too many, I guess) don't add this vowel in such contexts.
     

    Donn

    Member
    English - US
    Listening to speakers from Portugal (here on the other side of the world) I don't recall noticing this so much. Which doesn't surprise me much, not only because many Portuguese speak English quite well and English expressions often creep into their Portuguese, but also their lightly stressed final e is often scarcely audible anyway. So they might add an E to the end of Assad - and then they'd take it away most of the time. And since it doesn't affect the preceding D, there's no harm done, it just sounds like they're enunciating that D, or e.g. the D in vodka. (Well, at least it doesn't turn /d/ into //; whether it prevents /d/ from turning into /ð/, among people who do that in other contexts, I can't say.)

    Following up on the ancient part of this thread -
    1. I have to say I have never noticed the phenomenon alluded to, with N or L. Bonito -> Bonhito? I don't think so.
    2. The one time I have been to Brazil, I was in João Pessoa - Paraiba - not all that far from Recife, though I think rather far culturally at the time. They dropped final S, so dois reais -> doi reai. That doesn't facilitate understanding.
     

    Ithilien

    Member
    Português
    Following up on the ancient part of this thread -
    1. I have to say I have never noticed the phenomenon alluded to, with N or L. Bonito -> Bonhito? I don't think so.
    2. The one time I have been to Brazil, I was in João Pessoa - Paraiba - not all that far from Recife, though I think rather far culturally at the time. They dropped final S, so dois reais -> doi reai. That doesn't facilitate understanding.
    Palatalisation is not common in northeastern dialects. I'm not sure to say it doesn't happen at all in that region, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone say that. Dropping S is relalated to several things as region or social class. I myself would say dois reais but also that João Pessoa e Recife são dua cidades bunhita(s) with palatal N, and optionally dropping S in last word and in duas because next s-sound of letter C.
     

    mintaslanxor

    New Member
    English
    Listening to speakers from Portugal (here on the other side of the world) I don't recall noticing this so much. Which doesn't surprise me much, not only because many Portuguese speak English quite well and English expressions often creep into their Portuguese, but also their lightly stressed final e is often scarcely audible anyway. So they might add an E to the end of Assad - and then they'd take it away most of the time. And since it doesn't affect the preceding D, there's no harm done, it just sounds like they're enunciating that D, or e.g. the D in vodka. (Well, at least it doesn't turn /d/ into //; whether it prevents /d/ from turning into /ð/, among people who do that in other contexts, I can't say.)

    Following up on the ancient part of this thread -
    1. I have to say I have never noticed the phenomenon alluded to, with N or L. Bonito -> Bonhito? I don't think so.
    2. The one time I have been to Brazil, I was in João Pessoa - Paraiba - not all that far from Recife, though I think rather far culturally at the time. They dropped final S, so dois reais -> doi reai. That doesn't facilitate understanding.

    Well, you're forgetting that I was describing standard Brazilian pronunciation.

    I have very often noticed that Brazilians pronounce bonito as bu-NHEE-tu in speech and songs.

    Dropping the s is news to me. I thought that happens in Spanish dialects only.
    Languages develop and change not to facilitate the understanding by foreigners but, among other things, to
    achieve economy of expression wherever possible.
     

    Nonstar

    Senior Member
    Portuguese/SP
    Well, you're forgetting that I was describing standard Brazilian pronunciation.

    I have very often noticed that Brazilians pronounce bonito as bu-NHEE-tu in speech and songs.

    Dropping the s is news to me. I thought that happens in Spanish dialects only.
    Languages develop and change not to facilitate the understanding by foreigners but, among other things, to
    achieve economy of expression wherever possible.
    Brazilians say buNHEEtu?! Where did you hear that?
     

    Ithilien

    Member
    Português
    Brazilians say buNHEEtu?! Where did you hear that?
    English EE sounds somehow like Portuguese I. They meant Brazilians say bonito as "bunhítu". It indeed happens in several dialects, but I never saw a grammar that consider it as standard.

    This missundertanding could be avoided if we were using IPA transcriptions, though.
     

    Ithilien

    Member
    Português
    É bem comum no Norte e no Nordeste, mas não parece que aconteça do ES para baixo, ou, pelo menos, de SP para baixo. Eu nunca ouvi.
    Acho que você está confundindo as coisas, Norte e Nordeste é justamente onde a palatalização é menos comum. Nas outras regiões é muito comum em grande cidades como Porto Alegre, Curitiba, Belo Horizonte etc., não duvido que acontece na fala de quase todos os habitantes; já no interior é menos comum.
     

    guihenning

    Senior Member
    Português do Brasil
    A última vez que ouvi claramente essa palatalização foi numa música de Pablo Vittar, que nasceu no Maranhão, mas que cresceu no Sudeste. Há uma leva de artistas mais novos nordestinos atualmente que também palatalizam e bastante. Jaloo é um deles, por exemplo. Por outro lado, sou curitibano e jamais palatalizo e nunca nem ouvi alguém no Paraná ou SC palatalizar "bonito".
    Na última vez que discuti isso com uma ex-professora foneticista da UFPR, que inclusive publicou algumas coisas sobre o sotaque de Curitiba, não me lembro de ter lido em nenhuma parte que era considerada característica do sotaque daquela cidade, nem nunca me deparei com ela ao longo do tempo em que fazíamos as análises na Universidade (embora precise dizer que o foco desses estudos era sobre vogais e sobre o R, de modo que não sejam lá tão relevantes para o tema em questão). Posso ter-me enganado na questão da abrangência geográfica, mas, pelo menos no que toca ao eixo PR-SC, não me parece, de todo, que acometa "quase todos os falantes".
     
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    Ithilien

    Member
    Português
    Pode ser algo recente no Nordeste, afinal a globalização tá "matando" as falas regionais; mas não é típico nem mesmo bem comum na região. Músicas não são lá o melhor lugar pra analisar dialetos, já que as vezes os músicos forçam para ter um sotaque mais "neutro". Quanto a SP, os pronunciamentos do Doria e do Bolsonaro possuem claramente a palatalização, já o Covas não percebo isso (entretanto, o mesmo é de Santos e não da capital). Eu sou do RS e noto a palatalização na minha própria fala e de quase todos que são naturais de centros urbanos (Porto Alegre, Canoas, Pelotas, Rio Grande, Santa Maria etc), apenas nas áreas rurais ou com pouca urbanização que não é tão comum e até mesmo raro ou inexistente em algumas localidades. Pode ser que eu tenha exagerado quanto ao PR, mas percebi já na fala de paranaenses, mas acredito que possa não ser tão difundido quanto eu tinha em mente e acabei exagerando quanto ao estado. Em SC realmente não é comum.
     
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    guihenning

    Senior Member
    Português do Brasil
    Músicas não são lá o melhor lugar pra analisar dialetos, já que as vezes os músicos forçam para ter um sotaque mais "neutro".
    Por isso frisei que era uma nova leva de artistas, já que esta não tem tentado reproduzir o sotaque "televisivo". Quase que a totalidade dos artistas nordestinos atualmente canta com o sotaque com que normalmente fala. Pabllo também é um caso interessante porque o Pabllo em entrevistas e na internet fala com um sotaque mais padronizado, mas a Pabllo em muitas músicas canta com o sotaque característico — e foi numa dessas é que notei que ela canta "bunhito". Nunca ouvi a voz de Covas e muito pouco ouvi tanto Bolsonaro como Doria, mas é interessante saber que ocorra em pessoas que, embora provenham do mesmo estado, tenham as suas cidades natais em zonas dialetais distintas.

    P.S. não é a primeira vez que este assunto surge no fórum e, como sempre, a reação dominante é a de surpresa, por isso me espantou que fosse característica tão onipresente assim no português do Brasil.
     

    Ithilien

    Member
    Português
    P.S. não é a primeira vez que este assunto surge no fórum e, como sempre, a reação dominante é a de surpresa, por isso me espantou que fosse característica tão onipresente assim no português do Brasil.
    Nem sempre os nativos conseguem perceber alófonas ou algumas características da própria fonologia. Um exemplo é na diferença entre pegaram e pegarão que é apenas a sílaba tônica, mas já encontrei diversas pessoas que nunca se deram conta disso; ou alguns sotaques no RS que possuem o L velarizado (igual ao L de Portugal), mas as pessoas entendem como um L "normal". Algumas coisas são mais perceptivas como é o caso de ti, di.
    guihenning said:
    Nunca ouvi a voz de Covas e muito pouco ouvi tanto Bolsonaro como Doria, mas é interessante saber que ocorra em pessoas que, embora provenham do mesmo estado, tenham as suas cidades natais em zonas dialetais distintas.
    Mas esse é meu argumento: a palatalização é um fenômeno urbano do Centro-Sul que está se tornando comum em dialetos onde não existia antes.
     
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