When he had lived there, he <had had / had> lots [past participle]

Daab

Senior Member
Korean
Can all of these sentences be correct?

When he had lived there, he had had lots of friends.
When he had lived there, he had lots of friends.
When he lived there, he had had lots of friends.

I guess they could all be correct.
 
  • Daab

    Senior Member
    Korean
    I made the text below in which I mixed up tenses as I did in sentence 3 above. Are they awkard?

    He said he had lived there when he was younger. He had painted the walls when they worn off and had mowed the lawns when they grew back.
     

    velisarius

    Senior Member
    British English (Sussex)
    True, se, but a good writer is very unlikely to produce Daab's first sentence.

    I don't see a a real problem with it, if you see his living there as not having much duration:

    He no longer lived in California, but when he had lived there he had lots of friends.
    He no longer lived in California, but in the short time he had lived there, he had had lots of friends.
     

    suzi br

    Senior Member
    English / England
    I made the text below in which I mixed up tenses as I did in sentence 3 above. Are they awkard?

    He said he had lived there when he was younger. He had painted the walls when they worn off and had mowed the lawns when they grew back.
    The verb structures are OK. What is slightly odd is the wording of the wall and lawn activity. Neither of those phrases are very idiomatic!
     

    Daab

    Senior Member
    Korean
    How about these? I changed the verb.

    When he had lived there, he had met her twice.
    When he had lived there, he met her twice.
    When he lived there, he had met her twice.
     

    Daab

    Senior Member
    Korean
    The verb structures are OK. What is slightly odd is the wording of the wall and lawn activity. Neither of those phrases are very idiomatic!
    Thank you.
    Anyway what makes me wonder is the structures you approved to be right resemble sentence 3, don't they?

    I had done something when I did another.

    Why is this structure possible in my text?
     

    suzi br

    Senior Member
    English / England
    Thank you.
    Anyway what makes me wonder is the structures you approved to be right resemble sentence 3, don't they?

    I had done something when I did another.

    Why is this structure possible in my text?
    What do you mean by sentence 3? None of your examples has a number by it.
     
    Doesn't it grate upon the ear a bit?

    Let's go for seven!

    When John and Mary compared test results, John, where Mary had “had had,” had “had”: “had had” received a better grade from the instructor.

    One might note also, as to grammar:

    "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo" is a grammatically correct sentence in American English, {wiki}



    I don't see a a real problem with it, if you see his living there as not having much duration:

    He no longer lived in California, but when he had lived there he had lots of friends.
    He no longer lived in California, but in the short time he had lived there, he had had lots of friends.
     

    suzi br

    Senior Member
    English / England
    Sorry for confusing you. I meant the third sentence of the first posting.
    When he lived there, he had had lots of friends.
    It is a possible construction, but as everyone repeatedly tells you - the CONTEXT is the vital thing.
    I'd expect this to be followed by but ...

    e.g. When he lived there he had had lots of friends but when he move down South he was very isolated.

    Or we could use it in the sort of thing velisarius showed you in post #5
     

    PaulQ

    Banned
    UK
    English - England
    I guess they could all be correct.
    Yes, I guess they could - it's a question of context. The past perfect is usually used to describe completed actions in the past that give background/context to subsequent, more relevant events.

    When he had lived there, he had had lots of friends but time had moved on and now he was ... etc.
    When he had lived there, he had lots of friends, there was always a visitor who... etc.
    He had been persuaded to buy a summer home in Scotland but he always felt lonely living there. It was not like his home in London, when he lived there, he had had lots of friends.
     
    Hi Paul,
    Since I admire the quality of your posts, I express here some misgivings re the present case. I fear that the 'possible construction' approach of you and Veli, leaves misleading impressions. Likely Daab in the OP was raising the issue of grammaticality; the responses have been in those terms. But there are a number of related issues, e.g. acceptability, understandability, grace*, and naturalness. Else we end up simply telling people like Daab, that this is "correct" [meaning grammatical]:

    All the faith he had had had had no effect on the outcome of his life.

    *lack of, applies to your first sentence, in my opinion.

    Yes, I guess they could - it's a question of context. The past perfect is usually used to describe completed actions in the past that give background/context to subsequent, more relevant events.

    [1]When he had lived there, he had had lots of friends but time had moved on and now he was ... etc.
    When he had lived there, he had lots of friends, there was always a visitor who... etc.
    He had been persuaded to buy a summer home in Scotland but he always felt lonely living there. It was not like his home in London, when he lived there, he had had lots of friends.
     

    velisarius

    Senior Member
    British English (Sussex)
    Daub's first sentence sounds perfectly natural to me, and it isn't very difficult to imagine a context for it if the first "had" is stressed.

    Of course, in speech we would use the contracted form:

    When he had lived there, he'd had lots of friends.
     

    suzi br

    Senior Member
    English / England
    Daub's first sentence sounds perfectly natural to me, and it isn't very difficult to imagine a context for it if the first "had" is stressed.

    Of course, in speech we would use the contracted form:

    When he had lived there, he'd had lots of friends.
    Good point.
     
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