Which "bilingual" countries are actually bilingual?

Sepia

Senior Member
High German/Danish
I would suggest threading lightly here, lest this turn into an umpteenth thread on status of Catalan and Spanish in Catalonia and all things related.:) Should you feel inclined to weigh in on that, there are already plenty of threads, for example here, here, here, here and even here; the fate of the last one is what prompted me to write this.;)

As for the title question, if we are wiling to modified it and ask: to what extent is this or that country/region bilingual? then I would agree with Taraborn that Catalonia is very very bilingual. On the scale of 1-10, with 10 being absolutely bilingual, I give Catalonia a solid 7. Large parts of Ukraine would probably score pretty high as well, with lots of people being proficient in Russian and Ukrainian. I would give Ukraine a 6.

Again we are back into a totally different definition of what at least a lot of people - obviously including myself - would use for "bilingual country", so I am not going to comment on that.
 
  • papillon

    Senior Member
    Russian (Ukraine)
    Again we are back into a totally different definition of what at least a lot of people - obviously including myself - would use for "bilingual country"...
    Not necessarily.:) I am pretty much playing off of your own definition. I'll even provide it here once again:
    I think bilingualism in a country is a lot more about two languages being fully recognized as official languages. That means that you can go to any of the authorities and expect to find a civil servant there who speaks your language. It means that you can go to any larger store, restaurant or whatever and be served by someone who speaks your language. And it means that representatives elected into the parliaments, city councils etc. are granted interpreter's services if needed. And of course that both official languages are taught in basic schools.
    My point was to change from the absolute measure - yes or no, black or white, to, well, shades of grade, as the real world seems to be full of nuances and shades. Instead of saying -yes this country is bilingual, no this country is almost there but not quite and so it's not bilingual, I ask: to what extent is this country bilingual, or to what extent does it conform to the ideals you or others have outlined.

    Take Catalonia - certainly one of the more bilingual places on this planet. And yet it still doesn't answer to all of your qualifications. So instead of rejecting it as not truly bilingual, I say - it gets a 7 on the scale of "bilinguism"- a very good mark.
     

    Sepia

    Senior Member
    High German/Danish
    Not necessarily.:) I am pretty much playing off of your own definition. I'll even provide it here once again:

    My point was to change from the absolute measure - yes or no, black or white, to, well, shades of grade, as the real world seems to be full of nuances and shades. Instead of saying -yes this country is bilingual, no this country is almost there but not quite and so it's not bilingual, I ask: to what extent is this country bilingual, or to what extent does it conform to the ideals you or others have outlined.

    Take Catalonia - certainly one of the more bilingual places on this planet. And yet it still doesn't answer to all of your qualifications. So instead of rejecting it as not truly bilingual, I say - it gets a 7 on the scale of "bilinguism"- a very good mark.

    That a lot of people are bilingual is a nice thing, but I don't see it as important in defining if a country is bilingual as such. If it were I could claim that almost evey country in Northern Europe were bilingual as lots of people if not most also speak English.

    So that is where we differ considerably. I see a bilingual country/region/province as one that has considerable parts of its native population having different native languages and - in the ideal case - these are both fully recognized on all levels of society. This means to me that a person can go to authorities or stores and be served in their mother tongues, both cultural groups have acces to schools in their respective languages or that public schools at least grant both groups equal opportunities, that parliamentary processes run bilingually with translation services and interpreters for those who want it, that signs and public messages (ex.: I public transportation systems) by loudspeakers are made in both languages etc.

    But of course it is wonderful when people speak both official languages when they live in a bi-lingual country. But it is unfair to expect that they all can.
     

    jonquiliser

    Senior Member
    Svediż tal-Finlandja
    That a lot of people are bilingual is a nice thing, but I don't see it as important in defining if a country is bilingual as such. If it were I could claim that almost evey country in Northern Europe were bilingual as lots of people if not most also speak English.

    So that is where we differ considerably. I see a bilingual country/region/province as one that has considerable parts of its native population having different native languages and - in the ideal case - these are both fully recognized on all levels of society. This means to me that a person can go to authorities or stores and be served in their mother tongues, both cultural groups have acces to schools in their respective languages or that public schools at least grant both groups equal opportunities, that parliamentary processes run bilingually with translation services and interpreters for those who want it, that signs and public messages (ex.: I public transportation systems) by loudspeakers are made in both languages etc.

    But of course it is wonderful when people speak both official languages when they live in a bi-lingual country. But it is unfair to expect that they all can.

    Yet I find it strange to determine the (x)linguism of a country depending on the (x)linguism of either the entire or just a "considerable" portion of the population, or as a regional feature. I would say that any country where more than one language exist as the "native languages" of people, are bi/multilingual. And yes, that goes for pretty much every single country. Obviously not everyone will speak both or all languages. But the country has multiple languages nonetheless! (Some recognised, others not, unfortunately.) The fact that whether people are bilingual/multilingual depends on their actual capacity to speak those languages I see as a different matter.
     
    I think "Cape Verde" is a truly bilingual country where everyone speaks Portuguese and Crioulo.

    These kinds of countries are more likely to be bilingual:

    *Countries where people speak any kind of creole. Local people tend to speak both their own creole and the ex-colonial language.

    *Countries with so many different dialects.

    *Countries where there are different regional languages.

    Can somebody stop this "but in Holland everyone speaks English so is it a bilingual country?" thing. Of course not, in Holland peoples' mother tongue is Dutch not English. But Frisians may be bilingual both in Dutch and ......Frisian. One needs a (near) native proficiency to be able to talk about a bilingual situation in a bilingual country.

    P.S. Please, don't quote from me and ask for a reply because I may not visit this thread again.
     

    Mimi2005

    Senior Member
    dutch/english
    The province of Friesland (Frisia) in the Netherlands is largely bilingual, most local people can speak Frisian and Dutch. Just the Dutch "import" speaks only Dutch.
     

    Sepia

    Senior Member
    High German/Danish
    Yet I find it strange to determine the (x)linguism of a country depending on the (x)linguism of either the entire or just a "considerable" portion of the population, or as a regional feature. I would say that any country where more than one language exist as the "native languages" of people, are bi/multilingual. And yes, that goes for pretty much every single country. Obviously not everyone will speak both or all languages. But the country has multiple languages nonetheless! (Some recognised, others not, unfortunately.) The fact that whether people are bilingual/multilingual depends on their actual capacity to speak those languages I see as a different matter.

    But if you also coun smaller, non-native cultural groups, there is not point in determining the country anything in respect of x-lingualism because they would all have some 50-100 languages represented.

    And why and how should a state officially recognize a language spoken by, say, 0,4% of the population? What would "recognized" mean in practical terms, according to you?
     

    dojibear

    Senior Member
    English (US - northeast)
    but all of the mainland Chinese immigrants that I've seen (and I've seen many, since my college is full of them) speak exclusively in Mandarin.
    Historically, the US has more Cantonese-speaking immigrants than Mandarin-speaking immigrants. That is probably still true today -- there are more permanent residents of the US that speak Cantonese than Mandrarin.

    However, since the 1950s Mandarin has been the official language in China, and is taught in all the schools. Actually the official language is 普通话 Putonghua ("the common language") which is similar to the Beijing dialect of Mandarin. So any Chinese students who attends college is fluent in Mandarin. Many of them are also fluent in their "mother tongue". An email friend of mine attended college in China. She and her room-mate spoke mutually unintelligible languages. But they both also spoke Putonghua.

    Your college is probably full of Chinese students from China (not immigrants), all of whom speak Putonghua (as well as English, as well as their mother tongue).
     
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    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    As far as I know, Aragonese, Astur-Leonese, and Extremaduran are not officially recognized as languages. For all practical purposes, they are treated as dialects of Spanish.
    I know the post is from 2007 but I must say that what is said by Outsider, apart from wrong from a linguistic point of view -at least in the case of Aragonese and Asturian-, is also outdated. Both languages are officially recognized as such and have their own official Academies, even if they are not official as a whole in the territory of their respective Autonomous Communities.
    In Andorra, everybody speaks at least two languages. Right?
    If by bilingual country we understand countries where two languages are official, then Andorra is not, as the only official language there is Catalan.

    If we are talking about citizens, then most Andorrans can also speak Spanish but also Portuguese and French, given that a high percentage of residents are from either Spain, Portugal or France.
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    There are many areas in the world where two or more languages coexist and/or are official but the only place I consider truly bilingual/multilingual is Luxembourg.
    Most people, from whatever walk of life, speak French and/or Lëtzebuergesch or German and often English or Portuguese or Spanish or Italian too. They switch with ease and don't even seem to have a preference. In general their level is as high as you can get too.
    In what other country can you speak to absolutely anyone in at least two but often four or five languages?
     
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    Frank78

    Senior Member
    German
    There are many areas in the world where two or more languages coexist and/or are official but the only place I consider truly bilingual/multilingual is Luxembourg.
    Most people, from whatever walk of life, speak French and/or Lëtzebuergesch or German and often English or Portuguese or Spanish or Italian too.

    Lëtzebuergesch IS German. Distinguishing them both is like saying someone from London speaks Cockney and English. :D

    The division is rather a political and less a linguistic issue.
     

    dojibear

    Senior Member
    English (US - northeast)
    They switch with ease and don't even seem to have a preference. In general their level is as high as you can get too.
    In what other country can you speak to absolutely anyone in at least two but often four or five languages?
    Absolutely anyone? That may be true only in Luxembourg.

    But in many (most?) countries a significant portion of the population is bilingual. Even in the US (a very 1-language country) around 22% of the population is bilingual and fluent in both languages. If you count AAVE (Black English) as different from English, that rises to 30%.

    I don't count dialects, like the UK's Cockney/RP or the US's New York/Southern. Those might differ in sound, but they use the same words and grammar, except for some slang phrases.
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    Lëtzebuergesch IS German. Distinguishing them both is like saying someone from London speaks Cockney and English. :D

    The division is rather a political and less a linguistic issue.
    Frank, if you go to Luxembourg and say that you are dead!:D No joke.
    It's different enough not to understand. There is something changed in every word. Enough that I decided not to try to learn it. It would destroy my fragile German.

    @dojibear I've never seen people go from one language to another with such as people living there. Normally there is a preference but there there isn't. It's effortless.
    In the US could you imagine a bus driver in Kansas answering spontaneously in 4 different languages and it being fluent and correct? If he could he wouldn't be driving a bus.
     
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    Terio

    Senior Member
    Français (Québec)
    Canada is officially bilingual. That means that French and English are (legally) equal for the federal government.

    New Brunswick is the only officially bilingual province.

    In Quebec, French is the only official language. But according to the constitution of Canada, laws must be adopted and published in both French and English, both can be used in the courts, etc. (Good luck if you want a trial in French in a federal court in other provinces !)

    In other provinces (for provincial governments), English is the only official language. But they are supposed to provide services in French (education in particular) where the French minorities justify it. Generally they do the less they can.

    Since the territories (Yukon, Nunavut, Northwest Territories) are basically federal jurisdiction, both languages are supposed to be offical there. The Northwest Territories and Nunavut also recognize indigenous languages (12 in NWT and 2 in Nunavut).

    Even if Quebec is official unilingual and New Brunswick bilingual, it is far easier to get public services in English in Québec than to get them in French in New Brunswick.

    When Lower and Upper Canadas were united (1840), one of the goals of the union was to assimilate the "Canadiens". It's part of Canada's DNA. French did not survive thanks to Canada. It did in spite of Canada.
     

    dojibear

    Senior Member
    English (US - northeast)
    In the US could you imagine a bus driver in Kansas answering spontaneously in 4 different languages and it being fluent and correct? If he could he wouldn't be driving a bus.
    My imagination is stereotyped and inaccurate. Uber and Lyft drivers make less money than bus drivers. I have had Lyft drivers that were fluent in 3+ languages and could use them spontaneously. I know 5 languages well enough to ask questions.

    And why wouldn't he be driving a bus? Do you think that every multi-lingual person has a high-paying job?

    But if your point is that the US is different from Luxembourg (language-wise) I agree 100%. I have met countless people in the US who spoke at least 2 languages fluently. In the Boston area, they often spoke French or Russian or German. Here, they often speak Hmong or Spanish or AAVE. But I've also met countless US people who only speak English.
     

    dojibear

    Senior Member
    English (US - northeast)
    Many Americans can't understand AAVE. I understand much of it, but I can't speak it at all. I'm about the same with French and Spanish: I can read or listen, but I cannot speak. So I think of AAVE as a different language.

    But most people consider AAVE a dialect of English, rather than a different language.
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    Cyprus is a bilingual country (Greek and Turkish are official languages), but I don't know how many citizens are bilingual in these languages. I guess most Greek Cypriots speak Greek (the Cypriot Greek variety & the standard Greek) and English, at least.
     
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    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    For me a bilingual country is one where two languages are actually spoken and used by everyone living there.

    Canada may be bilingual officially but could you get by in Vancouver if you only knew French? Even the example of Switzerland, could I live in German in Geneva?
     

    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    There are some 50 officially bilingual countries. In practice, this means that the two languages are spoken by sections of their population, rather than the whole of the population speaks the two of them.

    As it is been pointed out before, perhaps Luxembourg would be the closest case. Otherwise it's easier to talk about bilingual territories, as most of the really bilingual territories on Earth are political entities within a country rather than countries as a whole.

    Then there are officially monolingual countries in which most of the population is indeed bilingual. Andorra would be one of the examples mentioned.
     

    Terio

    Senior Member
    Français (Québec)
    For me a bilingual country is one where two languages are actually spoken and used by everyone living there.
    You set the bar very high. In a bilingual country, you may have to use one or the other language according to the places or the social circunstances, but, for the great majority of the persons, one of the two remains a foreign language forever.
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    You set the bar very high. In a bilingual country, you may have to use one or the other language according to the places or the social circunstances, but, for the great majority of the persons, one of the two remains a foreign language forever.
    Yes, I guess so. I suppose I'd call those countries multiethnic or multilingual, maybe polylingual.
     

    Linnets

    Senior Member
    There are some official regional languages in Italy such as Friulian and Sardinian and all their speakers use also Italian; of course also so called "dialects" (such as Venetian, Neapolitan and Sicilian) are distinct languages, but they're not recognized by law.
     

    dojibear

    Senior Member
    English (US - northeast)
    WR dictionary list definitions of the adjective "bilingual" (in American English):
    1. able to speak two languages with the facility of a native speaker. (Linguistics)
    2. spoken, written, or containing similar information in two different languages: (Linguistics)
      a bilingual dictionary; Public notices at the embassy are bilingual.
    3. of, involving, or using two languages: (Linguistics)
      a bilingual community; bilingual schools.
    Every person doesn't have to be bilingual (definition 1) for the community to be bilingual (definition 3).

    But that doesn't solve the question "What is a bilingual country?" Any large country is a bunch of communities. Some of them might be bilingual communities while might not be. Consider Italy and China:
    There are some official regional languages in Italy such as Friulian and Sardinian and all their speakers use also Italian
    So the Friulian and Sardinian communities are bilingual. But what about the community near Rome (or whever the local language is "Italian")?

    In China, the official country language is based on Mandarin (the Beijing dialect of Hanyu). So people in Beijing speak one language. But people near Hong Kong are bilingual, speaking both Cantonese and Mandarin.

    Some countries includes bilingual parts and non-bilingual parts. So what is the country?
     

    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    There are people who think that territories "don't speak". But the fact is that the concept of "linguistic territory" exists and is useful to clearly define the boundaries of a territory in which a language is spoken, so that laws can be applied within it, regardless of the actual number of speakers of the language within that territory. The concept is therefore different to that of linguistic rights for citizens or groups of people, which are more aimed at an individual level.
     

    vince

    Senior Member
    English
    WR dictionary list definitions of the adjective "bilingual" (in American English):
    1. able to speak two languages with the facility of a native speaker. (Linguistics)
    2. spoken, written, or containing similar information in two different languages: (Linguistics)
      a bilingual dictionary; Public notices at the embassy are bilingual.
    3. of, involving, or using two languages: (Linguistics)
      a bilingual community; bilingual schools.
    Every person doesn't have to be bilingual (definition 1) for the community to be bilingual (definition 3).

    But that doesn't solve the question "What is a bilingual country?" Any large country is a bunch of communities. Some of them might be bilingual communities while might not be. Consider Italy and China:

    So the Friulian and Sardinian communities are bilingual. But what about the community near Rome (or whever the local language is "Italian")?

    In China, the official country language is based on Mandarin (the Beijing dialect of Hanyu). So people in Beijing speak one language. But people near Hong Kong are bilingual, speaking both Cantonese and Mandarin.

    Some countries includes bilingual parts and non-bilingual parts. So what is the country?

    This thread that I created is probably older than some of the youngest members of this forum, haha. I'm sure the version of me from 15.5 years ago would be fine with adjusting the topic to mean "bilingual regions" rather than "bilingual countries". For the purposes of the thread, let us use the first definition that you gave, on an individual rather than legal, government-imposed level. By this definition, Canada is not bilingual, but certain regions like Montreal, eastern and northern Ontario, and New Brunswick are. I don't (and didn't) care about which countries are officially bilingual, I can easily get that information from an Internet search.

    Diglossic communities are the most interesting and where native speakers are, IMO, clouded by their local sociolinguistic interpretations of what defines that language. This is why some people here are arguing that Letzeburgish (a Franconian language) and Standard German (a High German language) are not distinct languages, or that AAVE and General American English are the same.

    For the purposes of this thread, we will count diglossic regions even when there is partial (but not full) mutual intelligibility. Any regions where most of the population speak and can get regular retail, restaurant and other customer service in those languages outside of tourist areas are considered bilingual regions for the purposes of this thread.

    Is Rome a bilingual region? I don't speak Roman, or whatever language they speak in Lazio, but if locals speak both Standard Italian and that language, then yes it would be considered a bilingual region for the purposes of this thread. If the local language has died out (as I've heard has happened in Hanover and other parts of northern Germany, and what I believe has happened in a lot of mainland China), then it's not a bilingual region.
     
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    Linnets

    Senior Member
    I don't know elsewhere, but in Italy we call a "bilingual area" where there is enough difference between two languages codes, i.e. we don't consider Tuscany and Rome to be "bilingual". There are differences (e.g. in Roma the three variants of the same dialect/regional speech are informally called romano, romanesco, and romanaccio, from higher to lower) but not enough to be considered "different languages". Furthermore, a well known peculiarity of Italian studies is that regional varieties that are different form standard Italian but share with it some important features (for example /Cl-/ > /Cj-/ and no plurals in /-s/) are considered "dialects" (dialetti) and not regional languages unlike, for example, Ladin and Sardinian.
     
    74% of people in Bolzano/Bozen are Italian native speakers.
    If you mean the city of Bolzano and not the province (which is South Tyrol) then yes.
    I would say it's South Tyrol that is bilingual, not Trentino.
    Not quite.
    South Tyrol is a largely predominant German speaking area (also for political reason I'm sure you know very well, being Catalan). Most of them speak some Italian, reluctantly. They couldn't even for a second pass themselves as Italian speakers.
    If my native language is German and I learnt some Italian as a second language at school, then I'm NOT bilingual.

    Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol - Wikipedia

    In South Tyrol the majority language is German (62% of the population), although in the capital city Bolzano 73% of the population speaks Italian as its maternal language[...]
    The Italian language is a majority in 5 of 116 municipalities. Italian is the first language of 26% of the population
     
    Very interesting Paul. Am I correct in saying that they can't speak fluent Italian? (Unlike, say, Catalan-speakers in Spain)
    Yes.
    When I was in Barcelona my feeling (but I might be wrong) was that most people could perfectly speak Spanish but just chose not to do it whereas in South Tyrol people speak Italian like German speakers from Germany, Austria or Switzerland would do if they studied it, that is, with a strong German accent.
    I live just a couple of hours from South Tyrol and I've been there countless times. Crossing the border between Trento province and Bolzano province is like crossing the Austrian border. To be fair I must also say that while there are older people who cannot speak Italian at all (or simply refuse to do it) I've never met anyone of my age or younger who couldn't speak Italian to some extent.
    Another funny example: while official road signs are bilingual, the wooden ones made by the locals are in German only...

    02_markierung_7a.jpg
    17.03.06-Sud-Tirolo-Alto-Adige-segnaletica-bilingue.jpg
     

    Dymn

    Senior Member
    If you mean the city of Bolzano and not the province (which is South Tyrol) then yes.
    Okay, I didn't know "Bolzano" could be used for the whole province.

    In South Tyrol the majority language is German (62% of the population), although in the capital city Bolzano 73% of the population speaks Italian as its maternal language[...]
    The Italian language is a majority in 5 of 116 municipalities. Italian is the first language of 26% of the population
    Well German may be the predominant language but 26% isn't insignificant either. Both languages are official, both are languages of instruction... This looks pretty bilingual too me. I wonder what is the command of German by Italian native speakers, or in general the sociolinguistical dynamics in South Tyrol.

    When I was to Barcelona my feeling (but I might be wrong) was that most people could perfectly speak Spanish but just chose not to do it whereas in South Tyrol people speak Italian like German speakers from Germany, Austria or Switzerland would do if they studied it, that is, with a strong German accent.
    Well obviously Catalan is much closer to Spanish than German is to Italian and we don't have 100 million native speakers in other countries to rely on, so no wonder...
     

    Dymn

    Senior Member
    Fair enough, but then it would be hard to find actual bilingual territories, especially if languages are different enough. There's always going to be two communities, and your command will depend on your mother tongue, the language you spoke with friends during childhood, the neighbourhood you live in, etc.

    I would say for a territory to be bilingual, the population doesn't need to have a native-like command of both languages. Simply, the two languages should be spoken significantly, with no hard-and-fast territorial boundary to be drawn.
     

    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    Yes.
    When I was in Barcelona my feeling (but I might be wrong) was that most people could perfectly speak Spanish but just chose not to do it whereas in South Tyrol people speak Italian like German speakers from Germany, Austria or Switzerland would do if they studied it, that is, with a strong German accent.
    Well, aside from the two reasons mentioned by Dymn, there are many more which make both situations not comparable. Barcelona is the second city by population in Spain (so rather the Italian Milan, not Bolzano), kings and politicians have been imposing Spanish there for the last three centuries (I'd say Italianization of Bolzano didn't begin before Mussolini), and there were massive waves of Spanish speakers coming into the city -massive as in more newcomers than inhabitants were there. If you went back to the first half of the 20th century, right before the arrival of newcomers and of the mass media but already with citizens starting to be schooled compulsorily, you would hear all people in Barcelona speaking Spanish with a very strong Catalan accent too.
     
    Well, aside from the two reasons mentioned by Dymn, there are many more which make both situations not comparable. Barcelona is the second city by population in Spain (so rather the Italian Milan, not Bolzano), kings and politicians have been imposing Spanish there for the last three centuries (I'd say Italianization of Bolzano didn't begin before Mussolini), and there were massive waves of Spanish speakers coming into the city -massive as in more newcomers than inhabitants were there. If you went back to the first half of the 20th century, right before the arrival of newcomers and of the mass media but already with citizens starting to be schooled compulsorily, you would hear all people in Barcelona speaking Spanish with a very strong Catalan accent too.
    I have no reason to question what you are saying.
    Perhaps in 50 years most people from South Tyrol will be truly bilingual, but at the moment they are not.
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    I won't judge accent as it's beyond me, but when I visited South Tyrol a few years ago all the people I met spoke Italian willingly and fluently. I think it would be possible to live there not speaking German.
    It was also linguistically enriching seeing everything written in two languages.
     

    Pedro y La Torre

    Senior Member
    English (Ireland)
    According to Wikipedia, ''the Italian language was spoken as a mother tongue by 77.29% of respondents, Franco-Provençal by 17.91%, while French by 1.25%.''

    South Tyrol was Austrian until relatively recently (1919) and the German-speakers there appear to still see themselves as Austrians rather than Italians. The Aosta Valley has never been part of France and Italian appears to be dominant without any countervailing attachment across the border to keep French dominant such as exists in South Tyrol vis-a-vis German.
     
    According to Wikipedia, ''the Italian language was spoken as a mother tongue by 77.29% of respondents, Franco-Provençal by 17.91%, while French by 1.25%.''

    South Tyrol was Austrian until relatively recently (1919) and the German-speakers there appear to still see themselves as Austrians rather than Italians. The Aosta Valley has never been part of France and Italian appears to be dominant without any countervailing attachment across the border to keep French dominant such as exists in South Tyrol vis-a-vis German.
    Precisely.
     
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