wide-jumping horse on Hannover flag with Union Jack

  • English - Britain
    Guess one could google translate: wide-jumping but it sounds like a specialist term for animal gaits has depicted on flags and other emblems, so the German word mightn't be word-for-word wide-jumping.
     

    wandle

    Senior Member
    English - British
    At the site Unoverwordinesslogged links to, what we see is a laufendes Pferd unless my heraldry fails me.
    Schimmelreiter: Wer soll es denn besser wissen?

    I would say a galloping horse: but I do not know if that is an heraldic term.
    ...or one could simply look at the German version of the very same page ;) : http://www.koenigreich-hannover.de/seefahne.html to find "weitspringender Schimmel".
    That makes it clear, I think, that the unEnglish phrase 'wide-jumping horse' is just a clumsy translation of the German.

    The images of a Sachsenross on the page Demiurg links to, on the other hand, such as this, are of a prancing horse.

    The Uffington White Horse also shown on that page is, I would say, a galloping horse.
     
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    Demiurg

    Senior Member
    German
    The images of a Sachsenross on the page Demiurg links to, on the other hand, such as this, are of a prancing horse.
    That's called "steigend" in German:
    wikipedia said:
    Aus dem Erbe Heinrichs des Löwen war den Erzbischöfen und späteren Kurfürsten von Köln im 12. Jahrhundert der westfälische Teil des alten Sachsenlandes zugefallen. Territorial kontrollierten sie aber nur das benachbarte Herzogtum Westfalen. Um die Herrschaft über dieses Gebiet und den Anspruch auf ganz Westfalen zu unterstreichen, vereinnahmten auch sie das Sachsenross für ihre Zwecke. Hier wurde es aber zunehmend „steigend“ statt „springend“ dargestellt, also mehr aufgerichtet.
    So there's a transition from running over jumping to prancing.
     
    English - Britain
    Schimmelreiter: Wer soll es denn besser wissen?

    I would say a galloping horse: but I do not know if that is an heraldic term.

    That makes it clear, I think, that the unEnglish phrase 'wide-jumping horse' is just a clumsy translation of the German.

    The images of a Sachsenross on the page Demiurg links to, on the other hand, such as this, are of a prancing horse.

    The Uffington White Horse also shown on that page is, I would say, a galloping horse.
    Reckon you could be right. Reckon (when it comes to animal gaits) any use of the word jump in the English language is modern. Instead reckon its been something like springing horse/steed cf Springer Spaniel. Same gait as the horse on the Hannover flag - leaping/springing: http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/12367847_elastolin-lancer-on-springing-horse
     
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    wandle

    Senior Member
    English - British
    Both 'jumping' and 'springing' are mistaken terms, in my view. It seems 'springend' in German is a mistaken term for the horse's action, and 'springing' in English is a mistranslation of 'springend'. There are several questions here:

    (1) What action does the image on the arms of Hanover represent?
    (2) What is the heraldic term for that action?
    (3) What is the modern English equivalent of the heraldic term?
    (4) What is the proper German term?

    English heraldic terminology is based on old French.
    This Wiki page, Category: Horses in heraldry by attitude, lists the different ways horses are shown:
    • courant = galloping
    • forcené = rearing
    • pascuant = grazing
    • passant = walking
    • statant = standing still
    Of these possibilities, the Hanoverian horse is 'courant': that is, in modern English, 'galloping'.

    From this page, GLOSSARY OF TERMS USED IN HERALDRY, it seems the traditional English equivalent for 'courant' is 'in full career':
    Horse, (fr. cheval) ... is represented as standing (or upright), as trotting, as courant, or in full career (fr. galoppant, échappé), and as salient, or rearing (fr. acculé and cabré, also effaré)
    Among the examples given, it has:
    Gules, a horse [argent] in full career--House of HANOVER [ancient SAXONY]
    The meaning of 'Gules, a horse [argent] in full career' is 'Red stripes, a horse [silver] galloping'. This agrees closely with post 9.

    This page, Blazoning of Creatures, describes the action of 'courant' ('fesswise' means 'horizontal'):
    courant:
    the beast is running. The animal appears fesswise with forelegs and hind legs outstretched. Normally associated with canines, stags, and horses.
    The conclusion to be drawn in my view:
    the Hanoverian horse is courant, that is, in full career (galloping). The correct German is laufendes Pferd.
     
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    wandle

    Senior Member
    English - British
    What are you really looking for? There are technical terms in heraldry on the one hand and in equitation and racing on the other. In talking about flags and shields, it is the images and terms of heraldry that are used. These images are conventional, not realistic, and the terms for them are traditional. In English, there are actually two sets of heraldic terms: the original Norman French terms and their (later) traditional English equivalents.

    I set out to answer four questions:

    (1) What action does the image on the arms of Hanover represent?
    (2) What is the heraldic term for that action?
    (3) What is the modern English equivalent of the heraldic term?
    (4) What is the proper German term?

    My last post gave the answers as follows:

    (1) The horse's action is that of galloping (in other words, that is the action which the traditional image is intended to represent).
    (2) The heraldic term in Norman French for that action is 'courant'; the traditional English equivalent of 'courant' is 'in full career' ('in full career' means simply 'at full speed').
    (3) The modern English equivalent of 'courant' is 'galloping' (by this, I mean that is how we describe that action nowadays in ordinary language: I am not saying that 'galloping' is an heraldic term; for the heraldic terms, see previous answer).
    (4) The proper German term is 'laufendes (Pferd)'.

    In case anyone might doubt that the image on the Hanoverian flag is properly called 'courant', I gave a link in which the author describes the action of 'courant':
    This page, Blazoning of Creatures, describes the action of 'courant' ('fesswise' means 'horizontal'):
    courant:
    the beast is running. The animal appears fesswise with forelegs and hind legs outstretched. Normally associated with canines, stags, and horses.
    The key point in this is that the animal is horizontal, with forelegs and hindlegs outstretched. That is clearly describing the image we are talking about, and that makes it plain that 'courant', or 'in full career', or 'laufend' are the correct heraldic terms.

    The Saxon horse is different. For that posture, the heraldic terms are: Norman French 'forcené', traditional English 'salient' or 'rearing', and German 'steigend'. A modern English description of it (as in the Ferrari badge) could be 'a prancing horse'.

    The images of heraldry were created in medieval times and became fixed in set shapes, with set terms attached to each. It is unrealistic to expect that medieval artists would show a moving animal in true posture. Even in modern times, but before the advent of photography, if you look at paintings of galloping horses, you will very often see a posture similar to that of the image on the flag.

    As for horses' gaits, the proper terms for these in modern usage for purposes of equitation and racing are, I believe:
    galloping, cantering, trotting, pacing and walking.

    The word 'springing' does not come into any of these sets of terms, and as mentioned before it is really a mistranslation of German 'springend' (which is the wrong term in the first place). German 'springen' means 'jump' quite generally; 'to spring' in English means to make a sudden, elastic leap or bound.
    We talk of cats or lions springing, but not normally dogs or horses, which usually need forward speed before they get off the ground.
     
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