wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen

valdur

Senior Member
English
Hallo!

I was wondering about the grammar behind this sentence that I heard recently.

Why wouldn't this be "wieso würde sich das ändern wenn wir umzogen"?

In English, we would say "why would that change once we moved" past tense, but if my understanding is correct, in German that sounds strange and it is better to use the Present Tense?

Thank you!
 
  • valdur

    Senior Member
    English
    Once is a bit of a special case because it's 100% certain that it will happen.

    So, the Konjunktiv II does not really fit as translation.

    "Wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umgezogen sind."

    Hello! Thanks for your response. Is this the correct way to say it and what i originally quoted was wrong?
    Or can one also say: "wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen" without being incorrect?

    Do they suggest the same thing just changed a bit temporally?
     

    anahiseri

    Senior Member
    Spanish (Spain) and German (Germany)
    "wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen" is colloquial (spoken) German. In written German I'd prefer Konjunktiv II: "wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umzögen".
    Yes, Konjunktiv II is correct here, but when the verb sounds strange, as is the case with "umzögen", in spoken language "würden" is prefered: wenn wir umziehen würden. This is more or less a second conditional. The mix of würden with the present is strictly speaking not correct but very common. On the other hand, i wouldn't translate "wenn" by "once". For me it's if.
     

    JClaudeK

    Senior Member
    Français France, Deutsch (SW-Dtl.)
    Yes, Konjunktiv II is correct here,[....] wenn wir umziehen würden.
    :warning: But it would not have this ↓ meaning
    In English, we would say "why would that change once we moved"
    ( 100% certain that it will happen. )

    Or can one also say: "wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen" without being incorrect?
    It would be correct but the meaning would change => why would that change if we move.
     
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    valdur

    Senior Member
    English
    :warning: But it would not have this ↓ meaning

    ( 100% certain that it will happen. )


    It would be correct but the meaning would change => why would that change if we move.

    Understood, I guess it’s interesting to me because in English we wouldn’t use the present exclusively, but rather the past to show a hypothetical scenario.
    “If we moved
    To my ears, there isn’t the biggest difference in meaning between “if we move” and “if we moved” though if we use “why would that change” then moved sounds better.

    So the takeaway from this is: in German use the present for this construction rather than the preterite?
     

    Frank78

    Senior Member
    German
    Understood, I guess it’s interesting to me because in English we wouldn’t use the present exclusively, but rather the past to show a hypothetical scenario.
    “If we moved
    To my ears, there isn’t the biggest difference in meaning between “if we move” and “if we moved” though if we use “why would that change” then moved sounds better.

    So the takeaway from this is: in German use the present for this construction rather than the preterite?

    I guess it was just a typo by JClaudeK:

    if we moved - "wenn wir umzögen" (Konjunktiv II) or replacement with würde: "wenn wir umziehen würden"
     

    valdur

    Senior Member
    English
    I guess it was just a typo by JClaudeK:

    if we moved - "wenn wir umzögen" (Konjunktiv II) or replacement with würde: "wenn wir umziehen würden"
    oh sorry, now I’m confused again.

    so we can’t say “wenn wir umziehen”. The only correct way besides Konjunktiv II is “wenn wir umziehen würden”?

    or we can say the former and it just has a slightly different meaning?
     

    JClaudeK

    Senior Member
    Français France, Deutsch (SW-Dtl.)
    I guess it was just a typo by JClaudeK:
    No, it isn't - perhaps it's impossible in English to say "why would that change if we move. "
    So it must be: "why would that change when we will move."?
    "wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen" = "wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen werden." - it's still it's 100% certain that it will happen.
    With “wenn wir umziehen würden” - the move is just a hypothesis.

    But anyway, if the move is a fact and not just hypothetical, the best way to say is
    "Wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umgezogen sind."
     

    Frank78

    Senior Member
    German
    No, it isn't - perhaps it's impossible in English to say "why would that change if we move. "
    So it must be: "why would that change when we will move."?
    "wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen" = "wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen werden." - it's still it's 100% certain that it will happen.
    With “wenn wir umziehen würden” - the move is just a hypothesis.

    But anyway, if the move is a fact and not just hypothetical, the best way to say is

    "Why will that change once/when/if we move" = very likely to happen (once + when = 100% certainty)
    "Why would that change if we moved" = hypothetical, not very likely

    I was just a bit puzzled to read "once" together with "would". Perhaps the OP or any other native speaker can enlighten us.

    oh sorry, now I’m confused again.

    so we can’t say “wenn wir umziehen”. The only correct way besides Konjunktiv II is “wenn wir umziehen würden”?

    or we can say the former and it just has a slightly different meaning?

    Both are possible.

    "Why will that change once/when/if we move"

    "Wieso ändert sich das/wird sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen?"


    "Why would that change if we moved"

    "Wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn/falls wir umzögen/umziehen würden?" (Using "würde" twice is not the best style but possible in German)
     
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    JClaudeK

    Senior Member
    Français France, Deutsch (SW-Dtl.)
    Bist Du nicht mehr überzeugt von Deinem
    Wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umgezogen sind."

    Für mich zieht der KII im 1. Satz nicht unbedingt KII im 2. Satz nach sich.

    "Wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir erst mal umgezogen sind (= umgezogen sein werden)?" durchaus möglich.
     

    valdur

    Senior Member
    English
    "Why will that change once/when/if we move" = very likely to happen (once + when = 100% certainty)
    "Why would that change if we moved" = hypothetical, not very likely

    I was just a bit puzzled to read "once" together with "would". Perhaps the OP or any other native speaker can enlighten us.



    Both are possible.

    "Why will that change once/when/if we move"

    "Wieso ändert sich das/wird sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen?"


    "Why would that change if we moved"

    "Wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn/falls wir umzögen/umziehen würden?" (Using "würde" twice is not the best style but possible in German)
    In this situation, once refers to a future action that is concrete.
    "Why would that change once we move / have moved" = we have a definite plan to move that is moving forward

    If we say "Why would that change if we moved", it becomes a hypothetical situation.

    So my final understanding of the German is, if we want to use the situation of a hypothetical move that has not been planned out yet, the colloquial, spoken way would be

    Wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen würden

    With the conditional in both parts of the sentence, as opposed to English using the conditional and then the past?
     

    Frank78

    Senior Member
    German
    In this situation, once refers to a future action that is concrete.
    "Why would that change once we move / have moved" = we have a definite plan to move that is moving forward

    I'll send you a PM this probably leads too far for the German forum.

    So my final understanding of the German is, if we want to use the situation of a hypothetical move that has not been planned out yet, the colloquial, spoken way would be

    Wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen würden

    With the conditional in both parts of the sentence, as opposed to English using the conditional and then the past?

    :tick:
     

    JClaudeK

    Senior Member
    Français France, Deutsch (SW-Dtl.)
    In this situation, once refers to a future action that is concrete.
    "Why would that change once we move / have moved" = we have a definite plan to move that is moving forward
    I think that in this case, it would be more natural to say "Wieso sollte sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen?"
     

    valdur

    Senior Member
    English
    I think that in this case, it would be more natural to say "Wieso sollte sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen?"
    That makes sense, but if we are talking about a hypothetical situation of moving, then we still keep the conditional “wieso würde sich das andern, wenn wir umziehen würden” correct?
     

    Kajjo

    Senior Member
    spoken way would be Wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen würden
    I think there is quite a tendency to use nominal phrases instead of subordinate clauses if possible. I would say:

    Und wieso würde sich das durch einen Umzug ändern?

    oder maybe a bit more argumentative:

    Und was soll ein Umzug daran ändern?

    In my opinion, the initial title construction with main and subordinate clause is quite unlikely in real life. That's why discussing all the possible tenses became so complicated. With such sentences we need to think outside-the-box and phrase is completely from scratch.
     

    JClaudeK

    Senior Member
    Français France, Deutsch (SW-Dtl.)
    I think there is quite a tendency to use nominal phrases instead of subordinate clauses if possible. I would say:

    Und wieso würde sich das durch einen Umzug ändern?
    :thumbsup:
    In this context, the nominal phrase is much more elegant.
     

    Schlabberlatz

    Senior Member
    German - Germany
    1. unter der Voraussetzung, Bedingung, dass …; für den Fall, dass …; falls
    Grammatik konditional

    Beispiele
    • wenn er nicht kommt/nicht kommen sollte, [so] müssen wir die Konsequenzen ziehen
    • was würdest du machen, wenn er dich verlassen würde?
    2. sobald
    Grammatik temporal
    wenn

    "wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen" is colloquial (spoken) German.
    You are probably right, but I wouldn't mind using it in written texts, too. Duden doesn't even mark "wenn er nicht kommt, müssen wir die Konsequenzen ziehen" as colloquial.

    "why would that change once we moved"
    I think that in this case, it would be more natural to say "Wieso sollte sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen?"
    :thumbsup:

    Edit:
    "wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen" (even) sounds more natural to me than the versions with Konjunktiv.
     
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