willy nilly

M

mikael.toronto

New Member
Toronto
Francais (France)
I'm watching 'the office', and I don't get the meaning of 'willy nilly'.
Could someone help me with this one, in English.
Thanks.
 
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    • mikael.toronto-

    WELCOME TO THE FORUM!

    Willy-nilly means to do something without any thought or effort put into it.

    Example:
    She was supposed to be in charge of the decorations, but she did it willy-nilly.
    She was supposed to be in charge of the decorations, but she only did a half-assed job.
     
    Willy-nilly means to do something without any thought or effort put into it.
    Click to expand...

    I don't agree. The term means whether you think you have to or not, you will do whatever is required, as Sedulia wrote at the beginning
     
    It's new to me too, gasman. Here's how the OED defines the term:

    adv. Whether it be with or against the will of the person or persons concerned; whether one likes it or not; willingly or unwillingly, nolens volens.

    adj. That is such, or that takes place, whether one will or no.

    It describes the use of willy-nilly to mean "undecided, shilly-shally" as 'erroneous'.
     
    Loob said:
    It describes the use of willy-nilly to mean "undecided, shilly-shally" as 'erroneous'.
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    Strange, I've always used it to mean closer to MJScott's definition but not exactly. To me, if someone is doing something "willy nilly", they're going from pillar to post. They're rattling around, accomplishing nothing. I always imagine someone rushing around an office, trying to look busy without actually doing anything. They are rushing around "willy nilly".
     
    Dimcl said:
    Strange, I've always used it to mean closer to MJScott's definition but not exactly. To me, if someone is doing something "willy nilly", they're going from pillar to post. They're rattling around, accomplishing nothing. I always imagine someone rushing around an office, trying to look busy without actually doing anything. They are rushing around "willy nilly".
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    It would be nice if we had a word to describe this rushing around idea, Dimcl, and perhaps one should be coined. However willy-nilly has its own meaning, which I firmly believe to be the 'whether he wants to or not' idea. Surely it comes from the good Old English method of negating with an 'n', but in a playful way: ever/never, either/neither, will (he)/nill (he)?
     
    It is a PUN. The woman is good looking in the scene. A couple of men made comments that could be taken either way. When someone said something that became directly inappropriate, the boss sent the man out of the meeting. He then used the same euphemism for her private parts as the offending party, saying that no one was going to be checking out her (euphemism) willy-nilly.

    Willy-nilly - haphazardly
    willy- euphemism for a penis
     
    This is the context in which Ricky Gervais' character uses "willy-nilly" in in "The Office".

    Someone has made a slightly off-colour joke about a policeman's daughter who has joined the staff: "I wouldn't mind escaping up her tunnel".

    He is sent out of the room, and Ricky Gervais says "I will not have her tunnel bandied around this office willy-nilly".

    "Willy-nilly" clearly here means something like "indiscriminately": a meaning which, I see, is allowed by the WRF dictionary, though it's not one that's familiar to me.

    EDIT: sorry, mjscott, I hadn't seen your post when I wrote this. I think we're agreeing on what the word must mean. I don't see it as a pun, though. A typically-embarrassing David Brent choice of words, maybe:)
     
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    Interesting....
    ....I thought of it as British humor--the way you Brits spice up language in such low-key words and puns that they either go unnoticed, or they make you take a doubletake, then laugh....
    I'm thinknig the line was not put willy-nilly into the script! :D
     
    Sorry, mjscott, I was being unclear. I don't think the character is punning. But I do think the scriptwriters put the double-entendre in there deliberately :)
     
    Elwintee said:
    It would be nice if we had a word to describe this rushing around idea, Dimcl, and perhaps one should be coined. However willy-nilly has its own meaning, which I firmly believe to be the 'whether he wants to or not' idea. Surely it comes from the good Old English method of negating with an 'n', but in a playful way: ever/never, either/neither, will (he)/nill (he)?
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    The reference that mtmjr provided shows both meanings:

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/willy-nilly

    Does anyone have access to the OED to see if the other meaning is not listed there? That would be interesting.
     
    See post 8, James:)

    The meaning disorganised/unplanned/haphazard etc is not listed in the OED entry for willy-nilly.
     
    How interesting - I've always understood it to mean that something is done in a haphazard or arbitrary way, or without much thought. For example, in This senTencE i'Ve used CapITal Letters willy-nilly.

    But now it appears I've been using 'willy-nilly' willy-nilly. Except not. Gaaah!
     
    Usually, M-W is the first choice I consult. Very often it lists multiple definitions. Its entry for willy-nilly, which WestSideGal linked above, is:
    Function: adverb or adjective
    Etymology: alteration of will I nill I or will ye nill ye or will he nill he Date: 16081 : by compulsion : without choice
    2 : in a haphazard or spontaneous manner
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    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/willy+nilly

    Personally, I've always understood it to mean haphazard. I love the phrase even though I don't use it much; it's a great example of reduplication.
     
    I take it from the posts so far that willy nilly can be readily understood as meaning "haphazard". Would anyone please read the following example I just made up and see if "willy nilly" makes sense to you:

    A mother wants his kid to stop going around calling people he doesn't know or older than him "dude". He should address people with respect. He shouldn't call people "dude" willy nilly/haphazardly . It's a matter of politeness , not of preference.
     
    My Shorter Oxford English Dictionary is quite clear. The BE meaning (since about 1608) has been "Will I, nill I (he, ye)", equating to "Whether I want to or not". There is no mention of any 'haphazard' alternative meaning.
    I personally would use the phrase in a sentence such as "I'm told I have to take my driving test this Friday, willy nilly, despite the fact that it's my wedding day".
     
    :confused::confused::confused: How odd ~ it's always meant haphazardly to me too, as far as I know.

    I think, RG, given that this means completely different things to different people, it might be one to avoid.

    However, I wouldn't actually use 'haphazardly' in your sentence: I'd say all over the place or left, right and centre.
     
    Thanks~ Mother: Stop indiscriminately calling people "dude", okay?

    Does "indiscriminately" work in my example in #21?
    I've come across "indiscriminately" being used in contexts of inflicting harm upon people, like: indiscriminate use of chemicals/ indiscriminately swinging a bat/ an act of indiscriminate killing

    Do you think it might sound too serious for the context?
     
    Oh, no - indescriminately doesn't have an automatically serious connotation. Just to see what happened, I picked a light-hearted verb - hugged - and googled "hugged indescriminately." I found lots of listings. It's a thoroughly neutral word, so it can be used in pretty much any context.

    By the way, I looked up "willy-nilly" in The Shorter OED (2002 edition), and under the first definition for the adverb, it says "whether one likes it or not; willingly or unwillingly. Also, haphazardly, anyhow, at random." I don't know why this doesn't agree with your edition, Elwintee, but that is exactly what it says in mine. Perhaps I have a later edition. Or maybe the OED has separate editions for AmE or BE? I wasn't aware of this but I could be wrong.
     
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    redgiant said:
    A mother wants her kid to stop going around calling people he doesn't know or older than him "dude". He should address people with respect. He shouldn't call people "dude" willy nilly/haphazardly . It's a matter of politeness , not of preference.
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    That seems to me to be a perfect use.

    To me, the "whether or not he wishes" meaning is excessively formal and old-fashioned, as it relies on the knowledge of the Latin. That said, I would not be surprised if that meaning were used by, for example, a High Court judge giving judgement.
     
    I've always used the expression in the sense of "enforcedly -- whether one wants to or not"; having in mind the cited old-fashioned English "will he, nill he".

    Wandering a bit topic-wise; but isn't there a character called Willy Nilly, in Dylan Thomas's "Under Milk Wood"? (A rather feeble chap, IIRC). And on another message board (different subject) which I frequent, there's a rather splendidly forthright and opinionated poster who uses Willy Nilly as their "handle".
     
    The Phrase Finder website http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/willy-nilly.html is helpful
    This term has two, slightly differing, but related meanings: 'whether it is with or against your will' and 'in an unplanned, haphazard fashion'. We tend to use the latter of these meanings today; the former was the accepted meaning when the term was first coined.


    ...The early meaning of the word nill is key to this. In early English nill was the opposite of will a contraction of 'ne will'. That is, will meant to want to do something, nill meant to want to avoid it.


    1. Aelfric's Lives of Saints, circa 1000: "Forean the we synd synfulle and sceolan beon eadmode, wille we, nelle we."
    2. The Taming of the Shrew:
    Petruchio: [To Katharina]


    Thus in plain terms: your father hath consented
    That you shall be my wife; your dowry 'greed on;
    And, Will you, nill you, I will marry you.
    Click to expand...
     
    PaulQ said:
    That seems to me to be a perfect use.
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    It certainly doesn't to me, as I said earlier. The problem with the kid in RedGiant's case isn't that he calls people dude haphazardly/randomly, but that he calls
    "people he doesn't know or older than him" dude, which, given that to a kid most people are either strangers or elders (and often both), is to say pretty much systematically, hence my choice of all over the place or left, right and centre.

    Wow that was dull to write.
     
    I know I have heart "willy-nilly" to mean haphazardly, but I am certain I've never heard it to mean "against ones will". Is this a BE usage?
     
    ewie said:
    Did you read posts #1-30 in this thread, MrP? (Rhetorical question.)
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    I re-read posts #1 - #30. The TV show is American. The dictionaries cited all seem to be British. The question still stands. Is "against my will" connotation ever used in AE (clearly not in use at "The Office").
     
    ewie said:
    It certainly doesn't to me, as I said earlier. The problem with the kid in RedGiant's case isn't that he calls people dude haphazardly/randomly, but that he calls
    "people he doesn't know or older than him" dude, which, given that to a kid most people are either strangers or elders (and often both), is to say pretty much systematically, hence my choice of all over the place or left, right and centre.

    Wow that was dull to write.
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    So you would see, "You shouldn't call people "dude" willy nilly. It's a matter of politeness , not of preference!" as wrong or unusual?
     
    Packard said:
    [...] The question still stands. Is "against my will" connotation ever used in AE (clearly not in use at "The Office").
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    AE- To me is is always "will ye/nil ye" (you must do it, no matter what your inclination).

    On the rare(ish) occasions where the context shows that it is being used to mean all over the place or haphazardly, it always "jolts" me.
     
    redgiant said:
    A mother wants his kid to stop going around calling people he doesn't know or older than him "dude". He shouldn't call people "dude" willy nilly/haphazardly . It's a matter of politeness , not of preference.
    Click to expand...
    Originally Posted by PaulQ
    "You shouldn't call people "dude" willy nilly. It's a matter of politeness , not of preference!"
    ewie said:
    Who said this?
    Click to expand...
    I assume it is the mother...
     
    I always assume the meaning "in a haphazard manner" unless something makes it very clear it has the other meaning.

    A few examples of the "haphazard" meaning:

    http://www.comedymoontower.com/?p=2727
    As accustomed as some Austinites have become to hailing musicians and filmmakers before comedians, the Moontower Comedy and Oddity Festival just might change the natural order of things in the city. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if during the festival we have plants growing at night, chickens laying eggs willy-nilly, and roosters crowing long before the dawn.

    http://www.tmz.com/2012/06/20/alec-baldwin-attack-photog-courthouse-cbs-early-show/
    "People think I'm out there just decking photographers willy-nilly, nothing could be further from the truth."

    http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jan/30/news/la-pn-obama-drones-google-interview-20120130
    "This thing is kept on a very tight leash," Obama said. The U.S. does not use drones "willy nilly" but in a way that avoids more intrusive military actions, he said.
     
    Packard said:
    ... but I am certain I've never heard it to mean "against ones will" ...
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    There is a subtle but important difference between the original meaning "whether you will or will not" and "against your will".
    For example, it "rains whether you will it or will it not", but it doesn't rain "against your will".
     
    ewie said:
    How odd ~ it's always meant haphazardly to me too, as far as I know.
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    I thought it was an AE/BE thing with BE using it as "whether you like it or not", and now I'm surprised. I've gone through the posts and looks like most of you use/know only one meaning. Just checked it up in most popular dictionaries and they all indeed say there two meanings.

    1630495425417.jpeg


    1630495434645.jpeg
     
    zaffy said:
    I've gone through the posts and looks like most of you use/know only one meaning.
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    That is probably true (and for me it is the carelessly meaning) but I imagine that many or most of us "willy-nilly = carelessly" speakers also recognise the use of "willy-nilly" meaning whether you want to or not, if it is presented in the correct context. I certainly do, and "He found himself drawn, willy-nilly, into the argument" from Longman sounds fine to me. Quite likely the opposite is not true, because the carelessly meaning doesn't often make it into print.

    I think that one difference might be that we "willy-nilly = carelessly" speakers actually use the expression in everyday speech. I wonder how many "whether you want to or not" speakers actually use the expression. I don't recall often reading or hearing it.
     
    If I insert the "normal" meaning into the example sentences given for the other meaning in #40, it doesn't raise any red flags for me. There's nothing there that would make me think I had misunderstood the sentence especially when reading at a normal speed (not reading it word for word as if I'm trying to translate it to another language). It's possible I've read many sentences in which the author had that meaning in mind and I just assumed the "normal" meaning and nothing was really lost.
     
    I've always understood "willy-nilly" to mean "done without consideration when consideration is expected".

    I can see how the "whether you like it or not" usage arises and would understand it in context but wouldn't normally volunteer this. I quite like it, I might try it! It is such fun to say. I will go around saying it willy-nilly for the rest of today.
     
    This man is talking about issues with officers patting people down. Now, here "will nilly" means "whether people like it or not", right?

    And then somehow it evolved into a tool where cops, not just in New York, would just approach people and pat them down nilly-willy.

    1630499823040.png
     
    zaffy said:
    This man is talking about issues with officers patting people down. Now, here "will nilly" means "whether people like it or not", right?

    And then somehow it evolved into a tool where cops, not just in New York, would just approach people and pat them down nilly-willy.
    Click to expand...
    Yes, I think so. But who is it referring to, I wonder? One would assume that the people being patted down would never want this to happen, so it makes little sense for "willy nilly" to refer to them. Could it refer to the police officers?
     
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