"without including" and "excluding"

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green_wind

Member
China Chinese
Hello, everybody!

Is there any difference between "without including" and "excluding"?
And which one is more appropriate in legal English?

Thank you in advance.
 
  • foxfirebrand

    Senior Member
    Southern AE greatly modified by a 1st-generation Scottish-American mother, and growing up abroad.
    This needs a lot more context. What exact ways of using these phrases are you contemplating? Or what writings did you find them in?
    .
     

    green_wind

    Member
    China Chinese
    Thank you for your prompt response.

    I am translating some Chinese contract articles to English version. And I am not sure which phrase is better to stand for "not including".
     

    samcluk

    Senior Member
    English, United Kingdom
    I have rarely heard 'without including' used, 'not including' is more common.

    The plane ticket costs £24 not including air taxes
    The plane ticket costs £24 excluding air taxes

    In my opinion both are interchangeable.
     

    GavinCorder

    Banned
    English English (from England)
    samcluk said:
    I have rarely heard 'without including' used, 'not including' is more common.

    The plane ticket costs £24 not including air taxes
    The plane ticket costs £24 excluding air taxes

    In my opinion both are interchangeable.
    I'd agree that 'without including' is unlikely, but I'd say that not including and excluding are not quite the same. I'd use not including since excluding might mean that air taxes are not going to be payable at all, not (as I suppose is intended) that they will be payable but not quoted here.
     

    swyves

    Senior Member
    UK English, Living in Peru
    I could imagine using "without including" to emphasize that the items not included would not normally be included. Excluding would imply perhaps that they normally would be, and "not including" is then between the two.
     

    foxfirebrand

    Senior Member
    Southern AE greatly modified by a 1st-generation Scottish-American mother, and growing up abroad.
    Franglais said:
    I'm concerned that you're translating INTO English in the first place!
    I agree, especially since what is needed here is correct legal English.

    But what's worse, we still don't have any context to work with. Green_wind, why don't you furnish a couple of your attempted translations, and give us a fighting chance to help you? Legalese is full of weird expressions, including (believe it or not), "...including, but not exclusively, the following..."
    .
     

    swyves

    Senior Member
    UK English, Living in Peru
    I remember seeing a wonderful section of the British legal code, going into detail on definition of ground nuts and including "ground nuts shall be taken to refer to nuts, ground, other than groundnuts" or something of the like. It was a whole paragraph that was, in effect, a juggling act using the words "ground", "nuts", and "groundnuts" in every possible combination. I have no idea how anyone can dare translate legalese, but hats off to you.
     

    green_wind

    Member
    China Chinese
    foxfirebrand said:
    I agree, especially since what is needed here is correct legal English.

    But what's worse, we still don't have any context to work with. Green_wind, why don't you furnish a couple of your attempted translations, and give us a fighting chance to help you? Legalese is full of weird expressions, including (believe it or not), "...including, but not exclusively, the following..."
    .
    Thank you.

    I am trying to translate a patent license agreement. I am not sure whether I can explain it clear since the articles of the agreement shall be kept in confidential. However, here I post my attempted translation " ...Party B agrees to pay to Party A running royalties, excluding?/ not including?/ without including? any income or withholding tax imposed on the payment..."
    Certainly I mean the running royalties shall not include any tax.

    Thank you for your help.
     

    panjandrum

    Lapsed Moderator
    English-Ireland (top end)
    Anyone getting a legal document translated should always arrange for it to be checked by someone experienced in the language and law of the "target" country.
     
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