Word coincidence

AquisM

Senior Member
English - mostly BrE, HK Cantonese
Chinese-English:
批評 - to criticise - piping. The Cantonese pronunciation is not romanised this way but it is pronounced the same way as in English. Quite a coincidence!
咁都比你諗到...

Anyway,
Standard Chinese: 是 (Mandarin - shi, Cantonese/Hakka/Teochew - si)
Spanish: Sí
Portuguese: Sim

All meaning yes.
 
  • darush

    Senior Member
    English: better
    Turkish: beter (it means worse)
    Hello ancalimon,
    beter like many other words in Turkish is taken from Persian, that is an IE word.
    bad=>bad
    badtar=> worse
    badtarin=> the worst
    I think there is a tendency to change most of 'a' to 'e' in Turkey Turkish, so ben is also an Persian word in origin
    man=> I (in Azari Turkish I is man also)
     

    OneStroke

    Senior Member
    Chinese - Cantonese (HK)
    Standard Chinese: 是 (Mandarin - shi, Cantonese/Hakka/Teochew - si)
    Spanish: Sí
    Portuguese: Sim

    All meaning yes.

    French 'Si' too, but only for negative questions (oui for affirmative questions).
    I've checked the WR dictionary for Italian and got sì.
    For some reason, according to the WR dictionary, it's not 'si' in Rumanian though!
    Then I checked an online Catalan dictionary. Sí.

    One more thing: don't forget that we say 係 in Cantonese, which is pronounced 'xi' in PTH. For those who don't read pinyin, that's pronounced like 'see' in English and, therefore, 'si' in French.
     

    AquisM

    Senior Member
    English - mostly BrE, HK Cantonese
    1. I knew that in French, Catalan and Italian si is also used, but I didn't add them because they are all Romance languages and derived from the same root.

    2. According to Wiktonary, yes in Romanian is da, and is most likely to do with either Romanian's early deviation from Proto-Romance (than the more commonly known ones like Spanish and Italian) or the unique position of Romania and its being in the vicinity of Slavic countries, ultimately borrowing from them, or both.

    3. Of course. How could I? Although to be precise, I would say that xi is more like a mixture between see and she, but still similar to si in the various Romance languages.
     

    OneStroke

    Senior Member
    Chinese - Cantonese (HK)
    Hm, that's true. I repeated see, xi and she a few times, and it seems that the position where the tongue touches the roof of the mouth is the closest to the teeth in see and farthest to the teeth in she. That's unlike the Cantonese 's', which is about the same position as the English 'see'. I think this is similar to the PTH 'h' v. the Cantonese 'h'.
     

    AquisM

    Senior Member
    English - mostly BrE, HK Cantonese
    Indeed. See is the most front, then xi, then she. But enough with our little chat, or else we will deviate from the topic too much. To compensate, here are other coincidences:

    Fire:
    Cantonese: 火 (fo)
    Catalan/Romanian: foc
     
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    Hello!
    Spanish temprano and Russian рано [rano], both mean 'early'.
    Of course, Spanish word contains extra "temp", but in Russian it is also relate to time (темп [temp] - time, tempo).
    Another funny one: Spanish "cada" <==> Russian "каждая". Of course, the Russian word has an extra consonant [ж], and the endings of the words are somewhat different in pronounciation, but Russian people, especially children, might (and sometimes do) very erroneously pronounce (especially in hurry) the word "каждая" very close to "када" ("cada" in an approximate Spanish-like writing, exactly with the voiced [d] sound), so guess how the Spanish word "looks for my ear"! :D

    Well, I don't know if they are cognates... This page ( http://vasmer.narod.ru/p242.htm ) hints that the Russian word "каждый" originally consisted of two parts and meant something like "wherever [present]", referring to Max Vasmer's etymological dictionary. So probably not.

    Best!
     
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    Gavril

    Senior Member
    English, USA
    English "She" and Akkadian /ʃi/ have the same meaning.

    Irish "she" is pronounced [ʃi] like the English word, but at least the initial s- probably has the same etymological origin as English sh-. I'm not sure whether the vowels in these two words have a common origin.
     

    LiseR

    Member
    Latvian
    Also the word "cada" seems very close to the colloquial pronounciation of когда (када) = when, although I cannot know the correct word stress in Spanish.
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    It's usually a clitic in Spanish (and Portuguese), but when pronounced in isolation I'd say the stress falls on the first syllable. :)
     

    ancalimon

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    Here are two more coincidences.

    In Greek mythology, there is a name; Gordian. Also another one from Greek history; Dracon.

    Gordian supposedly made a Gordian Knot (an unsolvable knot) and Alexander The Great cut it with his sword.
    In Turkish, Kördüğüm means "an unsolvable knot" Kör: blind düğ: to knot, to tangle düğüm: knot which is hard to solve

    Draco is the first legislator in Greece and he made very harsh laws.
    In Turkish töreko means "set laws". töre: laws that are among the most important ones. ko: to set, to put
     
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    ancalimon

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    English elbow ~ Turkish dirsek

    While these word are in no way similar, in Turkish "Elbağ" means "connection hand" (connection to hand).

    ---

    Here's another really interesting one:

    In Turkish, we call Europe as Avrupa.

    It's assumed that Avars take their name from Oghuz Turks.

    The Oghuz Turks were the central Turks while the Ogur Turks lived all around the Oghuz Turks. They spread so much that they forgot they were Turks.

    The Avars were once Ogurs and they were once Oghuz.

    Avar means wanderer, "someone who wonders far away to unexplored lands" in Turkish.

    Thus Avrupa<Avaroba<Oguroba<Oghuzoba

    Oghuz Oba: The encampment of wondering Oghuz. (oba: wondering nomads, encampment of wondering nomads)

    --

    There is an even more interesting coincidence regarding this subject. The Chinese called Europe as Ōuzhōu 歐洲.
    "Ouz Öyü" means "land belonging to Oghuz".

    So maybe the Oghuz were in Europe even before the Ogurs.
     
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    OneStroke

    Senior Member
    Chinese - Cantonese (HK)
    There is an even more interesting coincidence regarding this subject. The Chinese called Europe as Ōuzhōu 歐洲.
    "Ouz Öyü" means "land belonging to Oghuz".

    So maybe the Oghuz were in Europe even before the Ogurs.

    Probably not. I don't know if you know, but 洲 refers to a piece of land surrounded by water (in this case a continent) and not land in general. Also, take a look at this:

    《明史‧外國(七)‧意大里亞》 said:
    意大里亞,居大西洋中,自古不通中國。萬曆1時,其國人利馬竇至京師,為《萬國全圖》,言天下有五大洲。第一曰亞細亞洲,中凡百餘國,而中國居其一。第二曰歐羅巴洲,中凡七餘國,而意大里亞居其一。第三曰利未亞洲,亦百餘國。第四曰亞墨利加洲,地更大,以境土相連,分為南北二洲。最後得墨瓦臘泥加洲為第五。而域中大地盡矣。其說荒渺莫考,然其國人充斥中土,則其地固有之,不可誣也。

    Therefore, 'Ōuzhōu' is probably an abbreviation of this 'Ōuluóbāzhōu'.

    Chinese/English:
    鯊魚 (shāyú) - shark
     

    mataripis

    Senior Member
    1.)Tagalog: Paumanhin (patience) Greek: Ipomoni 2.)Tagalog: Ibigay English: Give ( Read this backward and it become "evig") 3.) Espaniol: Tono Tagalog: tunog(sound)
    In Latin "ET" is "AT" in Tagalog. The "Alati" of Greek is "Salt" in English while in Tagalog it is "ASIN" but the saltiness is "ALAT". Greek light is "FOS" but in Tagalog it become "APOY"/ The "Katapatisis" of Greek has same sound and meaning in Tagalog "Katapat"(good challenger).the LILAC of English is the same color in Tagalog called "LILA"(violet).The English "altitude" can be "Taas" in Tagalog. The word "Valley" is "LIBIS" in Tagalog. The word "Wave" is "Alon" in Tagalog and the cause of waves is the magnetic field or gravitional pull of the Moon which is "LUNA" in Spanish. Star is Estrella in Spanish/Estella in Greek and "Tala" in Tagalog.
     

    Konanen

    Member
    Turkish; German
    Sorry for the following little off-topic'ish reply:

    Hello ancalimon,
    beter like many other words in Turkish is taken from Persian, that is an IE word.
    bad=>bad
    badtar=> worse
    badtarin=> the worst
    I think there is a tendency to change most of 'a' to 'e' in Turkey Turkish, so ben is also an Persian word in origin
    man=> I (in Azari Turkish I is man also)

    Dear darush,

    please allow me to correct as far as I believe to know:

    "من" ("I") in Persian is actually a borrowing from a Turkic language.

    Turkish "ben" and its related words in other Turkic languages (män, mən, bən, beng, ...) derive from Proto-Turkic *meŋ
    This is in accordance with every suffix of the 1st person starting with -m(-). There is also an Old Turkic Orkhon-inscription of the 8th century, which starts with "Bilge Tonyuquq ben..."

    Moving on, the Persian language is an Indo-Aryan language. The word "I" probably was in PIE *éǵh₂ (Latin → ego; German → ich; Anglo-Saxon → *ih/*ic; ...).
    The palatovelar ǵ in the satem languages (Persian, Kurdish, Avestian,...) changed into an alveolar fricative (ǵ → z).
    We can see such a word in the Kurdish language:
    "ez" means "I"

    I assume, that Persian **az interfered with از (az), meaning"from". So they borrowed, due to the nearness, the Azəri word for "I", that is "mən".
     

    Ironicus

    Senior Member
    English & Swahili - East Africa
    Mez and chabi are Indian borrowings from Portuguese, who had factories at Goa, Daman and Diu.
    Accidental resemblances are amusing, but I find much more interesting the sort of thing where people can say things in one language and be properly understood by speakers of another language, even when the two have been separated for a long time. I give two examples:
    1. A Scottish girl, asking me for some rope, said "See us a bitty tow". An Afrikaner, hearing her, remarked that in Afrikaans that would be "gee ons 'n bietjie tou".
    2. In Gujarati there is a saying "jyaN madh, tyaN maakhi" - where there is honey, there is a fly. It sounds very similar in Russian.
     

    Ironicus

    Senior Member
    English & Swahili - East Africa
    Mez is a table; chaabi is a key. In Gujarati these words appear as mej and chaavi. I've heard Tamils in South Africa use saavi for a key but I don't think this is the word in India: perhaps a Tamil speaker can enlighten me.
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Ah, yes, like mesa and chave! I guessed the first one, but was scratching my head about the latter. Thanks for the reply. :thumbsup:
     

    aruniyan

    Senior Member
    Tamil
    Mez is a table; chaabi is a key. In Gujarati these words appear as mej and chaavi. I've heard Tamils in South Africa use saavi for a key but I don't think this is the word in India: perhaps a Tamil speaker can enlighten me.

    yes Saavi is a loan word,

    similarly there is Veedu(House) which i think had come from Arabic(Bayt)

    The original Tamil word is Kudi, Kudil looks related Hut(English) and there is also Manai(residing place/house) looks related to Manzel (Arabic) ?
     

    mataripis

    Senior Member
    Ah, yes, like mesa and chave! I guessed the first one, but was scratching my head about the latter. Thanks for the reply. :thumbsup:
    The Bisaya Language has word "Yabe" for key.
    yes Saavi is a loan word,

    similarly there is Veedu(House) which i think had come from Arabic(Bayt)

    The original Tamil word is Kudi, Kudil looks related Hut(English) and there is also Manai(residing place/house) looks related to Manzel (Arabic) ?
    The word "house" came from Aramaic letter "B" read as "Beth'.The word "Kudi" of Tamil is related to Tagalog word "Kuta" (Fortress) and "Manai" has counterpart in Tagalog word for "bahay" (house).
     
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    aruniyan

    Senior Member
    Tamil
    The word "house" came from Aramaic letter "B" read as "Beth'.The word "Kudi" of Tamil is related to Tagalog word "Kuta" (Fortress) and "Manai" has counterpart in Tagalog word for "bahay" (house).
    In Tamil fortress is kOttai sounds like Tagalog word "Kuta" (Fortress), :)

    but Kudi(Family), Kudisai,Kudil(Hut), Kudai(shade/umbrella), Kuli(hole) etc.. refers to the places to Get Inside.
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    man is from the Old Persian genitive singular mana. Middle Persian still distinguishes nominative an “I” and oblique man “me”. In New Persian the old oblique has been generalised.
     

    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    The personal pronouns show some similaraties even in languages that belong to different families:

    minä "I" in Finnish; man, mine, mene ... in the IE languages (even if not in nominative)
    te "you" in Hungarian; tu, du, thou, ty, ti ... in the IE languages
    mi "we" in Hungarian; my, mi ... in Slavic languages

    P.S. "I" in Hungarian is én, a bit similar to the Middle Persian an (if I've understood well the previous discussion)
     
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    Ironicus

    Senior Member
    English & Swahili - East Africa
    This is interesting.
    At around 4 or 5 months, many babies will produce a gurgle that sounds exactly like this PIE word to me - not that I can claim to have heard the original. It could well be that it is from this source that we get the word itself. There are several other words that seem to have their origins in babbling, and I am sure there are more than a few neurolinguists working on the question.
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    Well, that is interesting.
    What do you propose for Kurmancî "ez", then? PIE: *ég´h2- ? (I don't have the characters right now. You will know what I mean, check my previous post.)

    Yes, this is the word in most Iranian languages: Avestan azəm, Parthian az etc.
    The personal pronouns show some similaraties even in languages that belong to different families:

    minä "I" in Finnish; man, mine, mene ... in the IE languages (even if not in nominative)
    te "you" in Hungarian; tu, du, thou, ty, ti ... in the IE languages
    mi "we" in Hungarian; my, mi ... in Slavic languages

    P.S. "I" in Hungarian is én, a bit similar to the Middle Persian an (if I've understood well the previous discussion)

    In most languages the pronouns are very short words. But this means that from a purely mathematical point of view the probability of random coincidence between two unrelated languages is fairly high.
     
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    Konanen

    Member
    Turkish; German
    Yes, this is the word in most Iranian languages: Avestan azəm, Parthian az etc.

    I really find it fascinating, therefore I will be asking (I love etymology :rolleyes:):

    Is the origin of (Old) Persian an known? How come, most of the other Aryan languages have a cognate of *éǵh₂- and Farsi did and does not (anymore?)?

    Oh, I don't know, have I provided this yet? I guess not:

    Turkish "dik kafalı" (stubborn, lit.: erect headed) vs. German "Dickkopf" (a stubborn one, lit.: thick-head)

    Although not in the meaning dik <> dick, adjected with the word "head", both refer to stubbornness.
     
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    ancalimon

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    Another probable coincidence in Turkish.

    Gather : Getir (To take something or someone to a certain place, to bring)


    Here is a funny one: :)

    Alligator : eli götür (chops off hand, gulps down hand, snaps the hand off)
    Oh, I don't know, have I provided this yet? I guess not:

    Turkish "dik kafalı" (stubborn, lit.: erect headed) vs. German "Dickkopf" (a stubborn one, lit.: thick-head)

    Although not in the meaning dik <> dick, adjected with the word "head", both refer to stubbornness.
    There are other coincidences in this coincidence.

    Dik also means the following in Turkish:

    Erect, perpendicular
    To plant inside something.

    Not to mention "dick" is "sik" in Turkish.
     
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    Ironicus

    Senior Member
    English & Swahili - East Africa
    And Aramaic definite article (Semitic) but it's placed at the end of the word - like the Bulgarian and Romanian definite articles.
     

    Konanen

    Member
    Turkish; German
    If we are at definite articles:

    ال is the Arabic definite article (pronounced "al" in MSA/Fus'ha and "el"/"il" in most of the dialects) [Semitic language family]
    el → Spanish def. art. masc., il → Italian def. art. m.(, le → French def. art. m.) [Romance language family]
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    It's hard to be sure whether there was any reinforcement from Arabic, but the fact is that very similar forms exist in all the Romance languages.
     

    Gavril

    Senior Member
    English, USA
    Old English se "that" (masc. sg.)
    Finnish se "that, it"

    I think it's common, cross-linguistically, for demonstrative pronouns to have a coronal consonant like [s] in the onset, so arguably this isn't much of a coincidence.
     

    Konanen

    Member
    Turkish; German
    The following words mean "this", if not refered otherwise. They all contain a coronal consonant in the beginning:

    French: ce [sə]
    Turkish: şu [ʃu] → that (slightly: pej.)
    Arabic: هذا ['hæːðæː] (in other dialects: ده [dæh], or ذا [ðæː])
    German: dieser ['diːzɐ]
    Hebrew: זה [ze]
    Scottish-/Irish-Gaelic: seo [ʃoː]
    Icelandic: þessi ['θɛsːɪ][/plain][/quote]
     
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