Word coincidence

Gavril

Senior Member
English, USA
I keep finding/remembering more pairs for this thread:


English ammo < ammunition< Latin ad- "to" + munitio "fortification"

Finnish ammukset "ammunition" < plural of ammus "projectile, shell" < ampua "to shoot"
 
  • Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin
    Good catch, fdb. I speak Mandarin and, to the best of my knowledge, 薄 bo2 does not mean "book". It means "thin" ("Peppermint" is bo4 despite using the same character). I guess SuperXW probably meant 簿 bù4, which was attested before the time of Christ and by no means a loanword from English. 簿 bu4 is the word used in phrases like "accounting book", "bookkeeping", "notebook", and so forth. If what SuperXW meant was that 薄 bok6 "thin" in Cantonese is also used as a word for "book", I agree with you, fdb, that it must be a borrowing from English.
     
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    SuperXW

    Senior Member
    Are you sure this is not a loan word from English?
    According to my dictionary 薄 means “peppermint”, not “book”.
    Sorry I typed the character wrongly, it should be 簿. :)
    I'm pretty sure it's not a loan word from English. The character 簿 is used in China in ancient times. Only until the modern era, Chinese start to use another character 本 to replace 簿 (because 本 is easier?).
    In ancient times, wow, do you think the "great Chinese empire's" character could be a loan from English, or maybe the English word "book" was a loan word from Chinese? ;)
    Good catch, fdb. I speak Mandarin and, to the best of my knowledge, 薄 bo2 does not mean "book". I guess SuperXW probably meant 簿 bù4, which was attested before the time of Christ and by no means a loanword from English. 簿 bu4 is the word used in phrases like "accounting book", "bookkeeping", "notebook", and so forth. If what SuperXW meant was that 薄 bok6 in Cantonese is also used as a word for "book", I agree with you, fdb, that it must be a borrowing from English.
    Looks like I've messed up 簿 and 薄. My mistake. 簿 should pronounce bu4 in Mandarin as you said. Still sounds very close to "book".
    The cantonese 薄bok6 is a borrowing from English? I thought it's just a variant of 簿...
    What should be the Cantonese pronunciation of 簿 then? Why does Cantonese have to borrow that instead of using the traditional character 簿?
     
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    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin
    What should be the Cantonese pronunciation of 簿 then?
    Cantonese 簿 bou6 (< Middle Chinese bó) vs. bok6 (< Middle Chinese bâk). The major difference is the absence/presence of the final consonant /k/. It's obviously a borrowing to match the English "book", which has a final /k/. The chance of a semantic shift from "thin" to "book" is extremely slim unless there is an external force (i.e., borrowing).
     
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    SuperXW

    Senior Member
    I see. Thanks. I think I can reanalyze their relations as following:
    簿 (Mandarin: bu4 Cantonese: bou6) accidentally has a similar pronunciation and meaning with English word: book. (Cantonese speakers may not feel them very similar. But Mandarin speakers would feel this way.)
    Cantonese speakers (probably Hong Kongese in its colonial era) started using the other character 薄 (Cantonese: bok6, Mandarin: bo4) to mimic the sound of "book", so 薄 became a loan word. This character is accidentally very similar to 簿.
     

    origumi

    Senior Member
    Hebrew
    Chinese guys (gals?), I admire you for being able to tell the difference between 簿 and 薄. If I was lucky enough to born Chinese, and even if I lived for a 1000 years, I'd most likely still be analphabet.
     

    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin
    簿 (Mandarin bu4, Cantonese bou6 < Old Chinese *bwaɣ), attested in Late Zou, is indeed possibly a loanword related to Old Persian pavastā "covering" (perhaps clay covering used to protect clay tablets) < Proto-Indo-Aryan *pōstaka/*pustaka (Sogdian pwst'k "book, document, sutra”, Parthian pwstg “book, pergament”, Sanskrit pustaka "book, document, booklet", Tocharian postak "book").
    The English word book, on the other hand, is from Old English boc "book, writing, written document" < Proto-Germanic *bokiz "beech" (Old Norse bok, Dutch beuk, Flemish boek, Old High German buohha, German Buche, Middle Dutch boeke "beech"), from PIE *bhehaǵos "beech".
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    ... Proto-Indo-Aryan *pōstaka/*pustaka ....

    Skt. pustaka- is a loan word from Old Persian. Although pawasta- occurs only once in the OP corpus, it is confirmed by Middle and New Persian pōst “skin, rind, bark”. *pawastaka­- is thus primarily “a document make of tree bark or bast”.
     

    ancalimon

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    Could there be a relation between Turkic bas (to print, to press) and the word above?

    Here is an article about Uyghur printing press sometime before 10th century.
    http://the_uighurs.tripod.com/Scrpt.htm

    [url]http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=\data\alt\turcet&first=1&off=&text_proto=&method_proto=substring&ic_proto=on&text_meaning=press&method_meaning=substring&ic_meaning=on&text_rusmean=&method_rusmean=substring&ic_rusmean=on&text_atu=&method_atu=substring&ic_atu=on&text_krh=&method_krh=substring&ic_krh=on&text_trk=&method_trk=substring&ic_trk=on&text_tat=&method_tat=substring&ic_tat=on&text_chg=&method_chg=substring&ic_chg=on&text_uzb=&method_uzb=substring&ic_uzb=on&text_uig=&method_uig=substring&ic_uig=on&text_sjg=&method_sjg=substring&ic_sjg=on&text_azb=&method_azb=substring&ic_azb=on&text_trm=&method_trm=substring&ic_trm=on&text_hak=&method_hak=substring&ic_hak=on&text_shr=&method_shr=substring&ic_shr=on&text_alt=&method_alt=substring&ic_alt=on&text_khal=&method_khal=substring&ic_khal=on&text_chv=&method_chv=substring&ic_chv=on&text_jak=&method_jak=substring&ic_jak=on&text_dolg=&method_dolg=substring&ic_dolg=on&text_tuv=&method_tuv=substring&ic_tuv=on&text_tof=&method_tof=substring&ic_tof=on&text_krg=&method_krg=substring&ic_krg=on&text_kaz=&method_kaz=substring&ic_kaz=on&text_nogx=&method_nogx=substring&ic_nogx=on&text_bas=&method_bas=substring&ic_bas=on&text_blkx=&method_blkx=substring&ic_blkx=on&text_gagx=&method_gagx=substring&ic_gagx=on&text_krmx=&method_krmx=substring&ic_krmx=on&text_klpx=&method_klpx=substring&ic_klpx=on&text_sal=&method_sal=substring&ic_sal=on&text_qum=&method_qum=substring&ic_qum=on&text_reference=&method_reference=substring&ic_reference=on&text_any=&method_any=substring&sort=proto&ic_any=on


    http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/re...ny=&method_any=substring&sort=proto&ic_any=on
    [/URL]
     

    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin
    Couldn't Old Chinese 簿 be indeed a PIE loanword from *bhehaǵos?
    簿, a word already attested in the works of 荀子(313BCE-238BCE), is a phono-semantic compound 形聲字. Its phonetic component 溥 *pwaɣ/phwaɣ suggests a voiceless onset in its original source. Iranian *pawastaka­- does not seem to have come from PIE *bhehaǵos or *bhagó-s (Pokorny's reconstruction) since PIE *bh- is reflected as *b- in Iranian (*bh- in Indo-Aryan and *p- in Tocharian). Unfortunately, Tocharian postak "book" is likely a loanword from Indo-Iranian (perhpas from Sogdian pwst'k or Bactrian πωσταγο) according to Douglas Q. Adams. Even if we believe that postak in Tocharian A and Tocharian B came directly from Proto-Tocharian, we still have trouble tracing it to PIE *bhagó-s. The possibility that Chinese borrowed it from Doric phagós (< PIE *bhagó-s) is very slim because phagós doesn't mean "book" or "document" but "oak, acorn" instead. In addition, Chinese did not have direct contact with Greeks, so any borrowing had to go through an intermediary. Alexander the Great did not conquer Sogdia and Bactria until approximately 327BCE. It doesn't seem to have permitted enough time for a second-hand borrowing.
     
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    Gavril

    Senior Member
    English, USA
    Italian mancare "to be insufficient, missing" < Latin mancus "defective" < "mutilated", traced to manus "hand" via the meaning "missing a hand"

    Slovenian manjkati "to be absent, missing", seemingly related to manjši "smaller", from the same stem seen in Latin minus "less", Icelandic minni "less", etc.

    I'm not entirely sure about the etymology of the Slovene word, and it's possible that its semantics have been influenced by the Italian word.
     
    Serbo-Croatian "munara/мунaра" (fem.): Minaret
    Greek «μουνάρα» [mu'nara] (fem.) :warning:: very hot woman (vulg.) augment. of «μουνί» [mu'ni] (neut.) :warning: --> pus*y, c*nt < either from, i) Venetian "mona" (with the same meaning), or, ii) from the Classical masc. noun «μνόος/μνοῦς» mnóŏs (uncontracted)/ mnoûs (contracted) --> soft down (on young birds) (with obscure etymology)
     

    Gavril

    Senior Member
    English, USA
    Slovene jedilni list "menu" is composed of jedilni from jed- "eat", plus list "leaf, sheet (of paper), etc.". Without prior knowledge of Slovene, it could seem as though jedilni list meant "eating list", and that list was connected to Eng. list, Spanish lista and so on.
     

    ancalimon

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    Turkish "ye : eat" "yedi : he-she-it ate".

    English - Usury : Action of taking exorbitant rate of interest.

    Turkish - Aş: To surpass a certain limit. Aşırı : exorbitant. Aşır : to steal
     
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    irinet

    Senior Member
    Romanian
    The English verb "taste" is an omograph to the Romanian noun in the plural form "taste", meaning the keys on the 'keyboard'.
    Also, the French pronoun "qui" is an omophone to the English noun "key".
     

    Maroseika

    Moderator
    Russian
    Brest - town in France, since 856, probably from Bretonian bre - hill plus suffix -st.
    Brest - town in Belorussia, since 1019, from Slavic beresta - birch bark or berest - elm.
     

    irinet

    Senior Member
    Romanian
    Do you mean homograph and homophone?

    Aaah, ok, I skipped the 'h', sorry. We have the same words and I started in Romanian and ended in English. My mistake.

    Yes, because, with the first case, we read [teist] in English, but read [taste] in Romanian, a kind of WYSIWYG, so there are homographs ('omografe' in R.).
     
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    Gavril

    Senior Member
    English, USA
    French clé [kle] "key" < Lat. clauis "key"

    Eng. key < OE cæg, origin unknown

    Welsh cau [kaj] "close (a door, etc.)", cognate with Latin cauea "hollow" > French cave "cave"

    ---------

    This isn't really a coincidence (given the divergent semantics), but

    Spanish tejas "tiles" < Latin tegulas
    Sp. Tejas "Texas" < the name of a local Native American tribe
     

    ancalimon

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    Turkish - English

    dam : dome
    tıpa : tap
    tav (for example, ceiling) : top
    dam (to be against something to stop it from getting spilled : dam (barrage)
    bar (wall) : bar ( block, prevent)
     

    ancalimon

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    English - Turkish

    These words sound alike.

    English = equal

    Turkish = eşkol : two identical lines (eş: identical, couple, match, rival) (kol: arm, line)

    Even more surprising is that Etymonline have this:

    equal (v.)
    1580s, "compare, liken," also "match, rival," from equal (adj.). Related: Equaled; equaling.

    Another coincidence this time about money between English and Turkic.

    shilling (English) ------ sheleg (“non-ambulant”, unconvertible, unexchangeable). Probably related to the word çelik (steel)

    penny (English) ------- peneg (small) (in Turkish minik : small)

    Sterling (English) ------- sytyrlig (twenty sheleg)
     
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    Encolpius

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    woman -- Hungarian nő -- Vietnamese nữ (of Chinese origin 女 [nǚ]), but since they are very ancient words I can imagine it is not a coincidence.
     

    ancalimon

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    I guess if there is not enough evidence, we have to call it a coincidence until someone proves otherwise and most of the Europeans accept it. :p From what I have learned about the art of etymology, that's the accepted standard.
     

    Escorpí Reial

    New Member
    Catalan - Catalonia
    This is very known:

    - habeo (Latin) and: haver (ca), avoir (fr), avere (it), haver (pt), avere (ro) and haber (es)
    - From PIE *cabh- ("to grab, to take")

    - habjana (Proto-Germanic) and have (en), hebben (nl), haben (de), hava (sv) and have (da)
    - From PIE *kehp- ("to seize")
     
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    ancalimon

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    Between English and Turkish:

    let (to allow, to enable, to give permission ) : It appears in suffix form in Turkish: -let , -lat

    English: to let someone touch
    Turkish: ellet
     
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    Gavril

    Senior Member
    English, USA
    Swedish slag "sort, kind" < Germanic *slah- "strike"
    Slovene slog "style" < the prefix s- "with" + *log from the same root seen in polog "deposit", polagati "to lay"
     

    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    a - indefinite article (English < an "one")
    a - definite article (Hungarian < az "that")

    i - and (many Slavic languages)
    y - and (Spanish)
     
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    franknagy

    Senior Member
    HU eleven = EN brisk
    EN eleven = HU tizenegy

    HU tar = EN bald
    EN tar = HU kátrány

    HU sugár is pronounced in almast same like the EN sugar.
    HU sugár = EN radius
    EN sugar = HU cukor

    HU alma = ES manzana
    ES alma = HU lélek

    HU kasza = ES guadaña
    ES casa = HU ház

    HU aréna = ES palestra (lugar)
    HU homok = ES arena (materia)

    RU воспаление = HU lob
    RU лоб = HU homlok
     

    Gavril

    Senior Member
    English, USA
    Modern Greek o "the" (masculine sg. definite article) < earlier ho < *so
    Portuguese o "the" (masc. sg.) < *illo

    But I don't know if this is a pure coincidence, since the thematic vowel -o- in masculine stems like *illo may be based on the vowel of IE *so "that".
     

    franknagy

    Senior Member
    HU part = EN shore
    EN part of sg = HU vminek a része

    RU семь = HU hét
    HU szem = RU глаз

    GE Harz = HU gyanta
    HU harc = GE Kampf

    GE süß = HU édes
    HU szűz = GE Jungfrau
    Swedish slag "sort, kind" < Germanic *slah- "strike"
    Slovene slog "style" < the prefix s- "with" + *log from the same root seen in polog "deposit", polagati "to lay"
    Hungarian slag = watering rubber tube in the garden.
     
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    Gavril

    Senior Member
    English, USA
    Swedish ombud "agent, attorney" (< om "about" + -bud "command"), the source of English ombudsman

    Old English ombiht "servant, officer", possibly < Celtic ambactos "messenger, servant" < *amb- "around" + *ag- "drive" + *-tos

    Celt. ambactos is also the origin (via Latin and Romance) of Eng. ambassador, etc.

    So the om-/am- in these words has a common origin (IE *ambhi "around"), but the rest is a coincidence.
     

    franknagy

    Senior Member
    Greek: hülasz
    Hungarian: hülye
    stupid
    See ancient Greek philosophers' teaching dialogs between Hülasz and Philonousz.
    ......

    HU tűr = DE er/sie duldet
    DE Tür = HU ajtó

    HU báj = EN charm
    EN bye = HU viszlát

    HU máj = EN liver
    EN my = HU -m, enyém

    HU mély = EN deep
    EN may? = HU szabad?

    HU kéj = EN sexual pleasure
    EN key = HU kulcs

    HU háj = EN fat
    EN hi = HU szia

    HU héj = EN peel, skin
    EN hay = HU széna

    HU táj = EN landscape
    EN tie = HU nyakkendő

    The Greek Island Κος
    I see the name of this island in two forms in the shop windows of travel agencies:
    1. Kos which means ram,
    2. Kosz which means dirt in English.
     
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