Word coincidence

Hntranslation

New Member
Vietnamese
Hi.
Ciao (in English!?) and Chào (in Vietnamese) are pronounced a bit likely. The meaning is quite the same except for the fact that Ciao is used for farewell only while Chào is for both greeting and farewell.

Cheers,
 
  • Gavril

    Senior Member
    English, USA
    Not directly, but the stem so- from which it derives (also seen in sono, sore "that") was mentioned in an earlier post.

    By the way, just for accuracy's sake: the adverb ("so") has a long vowel. so (short vowel) has other meanings in Japanese ("ancestor", etc.).
     

    Dymn

    Senior Member
    Ciao (in English!?) and Chào (in Vietnamese) are pronounced a bit likely. The meaning is quite the same except for the fact that Ciao is used for farewell only while Chào is for both greeting and farewell.
    Curious. At first sight I thought that they wouldn't be two unrelated words since ciao has expanded from all over the world, but they are. Ciao comes from Italian, and was initially s-ciao / s-ciavo in Venetian language, meaning '(I am) your slave'.
     

    ancalimon

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    Some religious coincidences.

    bible: Read as "baybıl" in Turkish. Similar to Bay Bil. Bay: God, deity Bil : to know

    torah: Similar to Turkish "doğru" meaning "the truth".

    injeel: (I think bible in Arabic): similar to "incele" in Turkish which means "to evaluate, to study, to verify, to correct, to attest, ..."

    Kuran: It means "the constitution", "the establishment. It can mean "the thing which covers every other thing" (exactly like how Kuran explains itself). or "the final law setter" (kural : law, rule)
     

    rhitagawr

    Senior Member
    British English
    Pojke is also a boy in Swedish. Would it be of Finno-Ugric origin?
    It would be. Finnish pojka = boy. There's also pian (=soon) in Finnish and yn fuan in Welsh. U and i in Welsh represent the same sound.
    There’s also (ice, pronounced like the German Ja) in Welsh and jää in Finnish.
    Hufen iâ in Welsh = ice cream.
     
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    franknagy

    Senior Member
    This essay might be of interest to you (it also contains a lot of examples):
    How likely are chance resemblances between languages?
    Have you read the science fiction story: "The 9*10^9 names of God"?
    Its essence is that a the Tibet Church pays a programmer for program that generates God's all possible names obeying the laws of he Tibet language. The employees believe that if all possible names are generated then the word comes to its end. The programmer starts to run the program and leaves the monastery in the dark night. He is laughing at the belief of the Lama's belief. But... He is looking up the sky and sees the stars one by one to disappear.
    My question to Tibet experts: What are the rules given to the programmer?
     

    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    ... The language needed words with meaning restricted to "boy" and "daughter", respectively. They were borrowed from Gypsy: "csávó" and "csaj", respectively.
    The word "klapec" for "boy" came from Slovakian to Hungarian.
    This is not the reason. Csaj, csávó and klapec do not belong to the standard register (klapec is almost not used, as far as I notice).

    For curiosity, chavo (also from Romani/Gypsy) exists in Spanish as well, neverthless the Spanish words for boy and son are etymologically different.
     

    rhitagawr

    Senior Member
    British English
    Talking of Welsh, which I was a few postings ago, the Welsh for rape in the sense of sexual violence is trais (noun) and treisio (verb). That's two words. (Trais also has a more general meaning of violence.) The Finnish words are raiskaus and raiskata. I suspect the Welsh and Finnish words are related in some way, although it's difficult to see how a Welsh word could have found its way to Finland and vice versa. Perhaps someone knows. I can't find anything online.
     

    Gavril

    Senior Member
    English, USA
    According to my (print) etymological dictionary, Finnish raiskata comes from the noun raiska, which refers to various negative things: "wretched creature, worn-out object, rubbish". The origin of raiska is unknown according to this source.

    I'm not sure if there is a widely-accepted etymology for Welsh trais, but I have seen it connected to trîn "battle", Irish trén "strong", etc.
     

    rhitagawr

    Senior Member
    British English
    Thanks, Gavril. My dictionary gives tafodi (abuse, scold) as one meaning of the verb trin. So there's at least an idea of treating someone unfairly even though tafod (tongue) suggests it's only verbal abuse. Trin also has a more neutral meaning of treat, e.g. dyn trin gwallt (barber, the man who treats your hair) which I did see once, and llawdriniaeth (surgery, treatment by hand).
     
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    lettore

    Member
    russo
    A funny one.
    Italian: poltróna (an armchair).
    Russian: пол-трóна (half a throne).
    Even the stress is the same. But the sound [l] is different: in Italian it must be soft (I think), in Russian it is hard.
    Unfortunately, I don't know how to explain the difference between soft and hard consonants.
    When I imagine a throne (трон), I always imagine an armchair that has a king in it. So, you have…

    Good night!
     

    franknagy

    Senior Member
    A funny one.
    Italian: poltróna (an armchair).
    Russian: пол-трóна (half a throne).

    Hungarian poltúra= an old money, coin of very small value.
    Politúr = a shiny thin sensitive layer of shellac on the surface of a wooden table.

    Used often with old and hard kohlrabi, comparing it to wood:
    "Ez a karalábé olyan fás, hogy politúrozni lehetne."
    Other usage with stupid and stubborn people:
    "Fafej, politúr" = wooden head, shellac!
     

    Encolpius

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    Czech -- kutat (prospect for something) [origin? not Hungarian]
    Hungarian -- kutat (might have similar meaning) [origin? not Czech ]
    That's a quiz for Francis.. :D
     

    Dymn

    Senior Member
    Hungarian - kér 'to ask'
    Latin - quaerere 'to look for, to ask'

    Question to Hungarian speakers (it seems to be a lot here :)): can kér also mean 'to want'? Because I just came across Encolpius' post on my thread, and he translates 'Who wants tea?' as Ki kér téat?. If so, it would be a word coincidence with Spanish querer.
     

    Encolpius

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    Hello Diamant, yes, it is true, there are a lot of Hungarians (and Catalans) here if we take into consideration we make only the 0,25% of World population, then there should be at least 80 Chinese members here... :D...where are they?
    I think I confused you...but I am trying to translate the meaning of sentences and not to make a literal translation....
    kér means "pedir" or "bitten" (English do not have a special word for it)...to want is "akar" in Hungarian and you might hear the verb sounds more rough that's why I think we avoid the verb "akar [want] in polite speech...but the Portuguse quer [ker] and Hungarian kér might be the same coincidence...after all, not to disappoint you, kér can mean want... But I remember one coincidence now:
    on that [English] x azon [Hungarian; of course it is at the end of the word]
     

    ancalimon

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    English word "character" (from Greek word "kharakter" meaning "engraved mark")

    Turkic:

    çerttir: (it's a sentence) It translates to English as "it's an engraving made of notches", "it's a marking".

    Proto-Turkic: *čert-

    Altaic etymology: Altaic etymology
    plus-8.png


    Meaning: 1 to cut (off edges), make notches 2 to click 3 to pinch 4 to pinch (a musical instrument)
    Russian meaning: 1 обрезать (края), делать зарубки 2 щелкать 3 щипать 4 играть на щипковом инструменте
    Karakhanid: čert- 1 (MK)
    Tatar: čirt- 2, 3, čärdäk-lä- 'to hew'
    Uzbek: čert- 2, 4
    Azerbaidzhan: čärt- 1, 2
    Turkmen: čirt- 1, 3
    Khakassian: sirte- 2
    Shor: širte- 2
    Oyrat: čert- 1, 2
    Halaj: čirt- 2
    Chuvash: śart 'a dent for inserting bottom into banded vessels'
    Kirghiz: čert- 2, 4
    Kazakh: šert- 2, 4
    Noghai: šert- 2, 3, 4
    Bashkir: sirt- 2, 3
    Balkar: čert- 'to mark'
    Karakalpak: šert- 2, 4
    Kumyk: čert- 1, 2, 4
    Comments: VEWT 105, EDT 428, Федотов 2, 87-88. The semantic development here is 'to make notches, indents' > 'break the edge', 'pinch' (whence 'to click with fingers') - not onomatopoetic, as suggested by Clauson.

    Other similarities are:

    kara: black
    karala: to draw, to line through
     

    Encolpius

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    German -- Tschö! [tʃøː] -- Northern variant of the stand German greeting Tschüss [etym: < adieu]
    Hungarian -- Cső! [tʃøː] -- slang variant of the standard Hungarian greeting Szia [etym: < csöves - hippy]
     

    Encolpius

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    False example again. :thumbsdown: the Hungarian word fertály comes form the German Viertel....you haven't understood the sense of this thread at all :rolleyes:
     

    810senior

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    According to this site Japanese and Hungarian seems to share some words similar to the pronunciation(I hope Encolpius would get interested in this) :)

    For example(cited from the above site):

    Hungarian : Japanese
    korai : 古来(korai: ancient)
    mamma : まんま(mamma: a meal, almost used in baby talk)
    ide : 出で(ide: come here)
    új : 初い(ui: first)
    hull : 降る(furu: fall, pour down)
    okol : 怒る(okoru: get angry with)
    kucorog : くつろぐ(kutsurogu: loosen up)
    : 塩(sio: salt)
    sótlan : 塩たらん(siotaran: lack of salt)
    szék : 席(seki: seat)
    utó : 後(ato: after, behind)
    áll : ある(aru: be, exist)
    gurul : ぐるぐる(guruguru: going around)
    üt : 打つ(utsu: to hit)
     

    Encolpius

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    Thank you for sharing... As you can see I am rather strict with choosing my examples I think I'd choose sótlan - siotaran and szék - seki only, but even those two examples are very fascinating. :)
     

    Gavril

    Senior Member
    English, USA
    English flour is etymologically the same word as flower (perhaps because flour is finely ground grain, and was therefore seen as the "flower" of this grain)

    Welsh blawd "flour" is formally identical to blawd "flowers, blossoms", but the two are not from the same root: the word meaning "flour" comes from earlier *mlāt- (related to malu "grind"), whereas the word meaning "flowers" is from earlier *blāt- (related to English blade, bloom, Greek phýllon "leaf", etc.)

    Although the two Welsh words are not a semantic match, someone might mistakenly draw a historical connection between them on the analogy of word-pairs like English flour/flower.
     

    franknagy

    Senior Member
    Hungarian "eleven" means "vivid", "living" not 11 as in English.
    HU "ragad" verb. "It is sticking" <--> EN "rugged".
    HU "liszt"=flour EN "list" RU "лист"= leav(es).
    HU "kasza" = scythe RU "коса" = ponytail.
    HU "más" = other SP "más" =but, more.
     

    123xyz

    Senior Member
    Macedonian
    English flour is etymologically the same word as flower (perhaps because flour is finely ground grain, and was therefore seen as the "flower" of this grain)

    Welsh blawd "flour" is formally identical to blawd "flowers, blossoms", but the two are not from the same root: the word meaning "flour" comes from earlier *mlāt- (related to malu "grind"), whereas the word meaning "flowers" is from earlier *blāt- (related to English blade, bloom, Greek phýllon "leaf", etc.)

    Although the two Welsh words are not a semantic match, someone might mistakenly draw a historical connection between them on the analogy of word-pairs like English flour/flower.

    This reminds me of an interesting coincidence between Hungarian and Macedonian (and other Slavic languages):

    цвет (flower) - свет (world) - светол (bright)
    virág (flower) - világ (world) - világos (bright)

    So, in both Hungarian and Macedonian, the words for "flower" and "world" differ by only one letter, while being otherwise unrelated etymologically (for Macedonian, I am certain of this, though I leave room for doubt in connection with the Hungarian pair). Additionally, in both languages, an adjective meaning "bright" can be derived from the word for "world".
    Hungarian "eleven" means "vivid", "living" not 11 as in English.
    HU "ragad" verb. "It is sticking" <--> EN "rugged".
    HU "liszt"=flour EN "list" RU "лист"= leav(es).
    HU "kasza" = scythe RU "коса" = ponytail.
    HU "más" = other SP "más" =but, more.

    In Russian, "коса" likewise means "scythe", and the "kasza" <> "коса" pair doesn't match the OP's requirements, since "kasza" is a Slavic loanword in Hungarian.
     
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    Dragonseed

    Senior Member
    France - French
    A very simple one - the Chinese 的(pronounced 'de') has the exact same meaning as the French "de" ("of", as used as a genitif). Except their construction is opposite:
    La maison de Claire ("the house of Clair")
    Clair 的房子("Clair -de- house")
     

    Encolpius

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    This reminds me of an interesting coincidence between Hungarian and Macedonian (and other Slavic languages):

    цвет (flower) - свет (world) - светол (bright)
    virág (flower) - világ (world) - világos (bright)

    So, in both Hungarian and Macedonian, the words for "flower" and "world" differ by only one letter, while being otherwise unrelated etymologically (for Macedonian, I am certain of this, though I leave room for doubt in connection with the Hungarian pair). Additionally, in both languages, an adjective meaning "bright" can be derived from the word for "world".

    We have discussed it here in the past....I think here
     

    Gavril

    Senior Member
    English, USA
    Possible coincidences (I haven't been able to find the etymology of any of these words so far):


    Armenian
    բացի [Western pronunciation: patsi] ”except (for)”

    Finnish
    paitsi ”except, besides”

    ---

    Armenian
    բայց [Western pronunciation: payts] “but, however”

    Slovene pač „however“
     
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    A funny one.
    Italian: poltróna (an armchair).
    Russian: пол-трóна (half a throne).
    Even the stress is the same. But the sound [l] is different: in Italian it must be soft (I think), in Russian it is hard.
    Unfortunately, I don't know how to explain the difference between soft and hard consonants.
    When I imagine a throne (трон), I always imagine an armchair that has a king in it. So, you have…

    Good night!
    Both of them are actually from the Latin pullus (masc.) --> foal, young animal which produced the Late Lat. pulliter > It. poltro/poltrona. We have it too, as «πολυθρόνα» [poliˈθrona] (fem.) --> armchair.
    It's a Latin loan, but the word has been regarded falsely as being a derivative of the Gr. «θρόνος» --> throne. In Greek too we take it as a compound, formed with the joining together of two ancient Greek words; the combining form «πολυ-» pŏlu- of Classical Gr. adj. «πολύς» pŏlús --> much, many, often (PIE *p(e)lh₁- many) + Classical masc. noun «θρόνος» tʰrónŏs --> throne, seat, chair of state, judge's seat (possibly from PIE *dʰer- to hold, support). Unfortunately that's paretymology (pardon my neologism). The correct spelling of the word in Greek is «πολιθρόνα» (since it's a foreign loan).
     

    Gavril

    Senior Member
    English, USA
    Slovene pustiti "to leave (a place, person, etc.)" < pust- < possibly from the same root as Greek paúein "to stop"

    Finnish poistua "to leave (a place)" < mediopassive form of poistaa "to remove" < pois "away"
     

    ancalimon

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    In Turkish the verb "pıs" "pus" means "to be afraid and hide behind something or leave a place". It's also related with "pusu" meaning "ambush".
     

    ancalimon

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    While reading the thread about "nexus" here: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=3003611 I spotted a coincidence.
    nexus (n.) 1660s, "bond, link, means of communication," from Latin nexus "that which ties or binds together," past participle of nectere "to bind," from PIE root *ned- "to bind, tie" (see net (n.)).

    Turkic:

    Proto-Turkic: *dẹg-
    Meaning: 1 to cost, to be worth 2 price 3 to change, exchange 4 allotment, portion 5 worth 6 change, exchange

    Proto-Turkic: *dẹg-
    Meaning: to touch, to reach

    Proto-Turkic: *dAk-
    Meaning: to bind to, add to


    This lead to me spotting another coincidence

    bow ~ tie... See:

    Proto-Turkic: *b(i)ā-

    Meaning: 1 to bind 2 to fasten 3 bundle 4 bond, rope


    Proto-Turkic: *bog-
    Meaning: 1 to tie up 2 to strangle 3 to hinder 4 bundle

    And this also led me to spot another coincidence:

    bog (v.)
    "to sink (something or someone) in a bog," c. 1600, from bog (n.). Intransitive use from c. 1800. Related: Bogged; bogging.

    Proto-Turkic: *bog-
    Meaning: 1 to tie up 2 to strangle 3 to hinder 4 bundle

    Proto-Turkic: *bok
    Meaning: dirt, dung

    And :) This led me to spot another coincidence:

    bog (n.)
    c. 1500, from Gaelic and Irish bogach "bog," from adjective bog "soft, moist," from PIE *bhugh-, from root *bheugh- "to bend" (see bow (v.)). Bog-trotter applied to the wild Irish from 1670s.

    Proto-Turkic: *bük-

    Meaning: 1 to bow, bend 2 to curve, bend, wrap smth.

    Then this led me to spot several other coincidences like:
    curve (v.)
    early 15c. (implied in curved), from Latin curvus "crooked, curved, bent," and curvare "to bend," both from PIE root *(s)ker- (2) "to turn, bend" (see ring (n.)).

    Turkic: kıvır (curve), kıvırcık (curly), kavra (cover)

    There are maybe tens of thousands of examples like this. :) I think I can find a coincidence like these for every single word of Indo-European languages.

    But let's leave them for another time.
     
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    Gavril

    Senior Member
    English, USA
    English ruin (noun meaning "decayed or destroyed building or settlement") < Latin ruina "a fall, a collapse" < ruere "to fall"
    Finnish raunio "ruin" < the same root as Old Icelandic hraun "stony ground" (later "lava")

    (This does not apply to the verb ruin meaning "destroy", or to the noun ruin insofar as it means "destruction"; the Finnish words for these meanings do not resemble the English ones at all.)
     
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    810senior

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    Japanese: happi(法被, traditional Japanese coat, mostly dressed in the festival)
    English: happy

    Japanese: gussuri(adv. meaning soundly, mostly used with a verb nemuru or neru, e.g. gussuri neru, to sleep soundly)
    English: good sleep

    Japanese: kasu(scum)
    French: (je) casse(I break)
     

    UkrainianPolyglot

    Member
    Ukrainian native, but English better
    Latin/Romance habeo and English/Germanic have. Both mean "to have" and are used as auxiliaries. Apparently these are NOT cognates.
     

    ancalimon

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    Hungarian:
    Puszta (noun) is a grassland biome on the Great Hungarian Plain.
    Pusztít (verb) = rave, destroy.

    The word means "plains", a vast wilderness of grass and bushes. The name comes from an adjective of the same form, meaning "waste, barren, bare". Puszta is ultimately a Slavic loanword in Hungarian (compare Serbo-Croatian and Bulgarian pust and Polish pusty, both meaning bare or empty).

    Turkish:

    Boş : Empty, bare
    Boz : To undo, to destroy, to damage, to ruin, to spoil, greyish, blurry, hazy, darkish, ...
    Bozkır : plains

    Proto-Turkic: *boĺ
    Altaic etymology: Altaic etymology
    plus-8.png


    Meaning: free, empty
    Russian meaning: свободный, пустой
    Old Turkic: boš (OUygh.)
    Karakhanid: boš (MK, KB)
    Turkish: boš
    Tatar: buš
    Middle Turkic: boš (Sangl.)
    Uzbek: bụš
    Uighur: boš
    Sary-Yughur: bos, pos
    Azerbaidzhan: boš
    Turkmen: boš
    Khakassian: pos
    Shor: pos
    Oyrat: boš
    Halaj: boš
    Chuvash: požъ
    Yakut: bosxo (*boš-ka)
    Dolgan: bosko 'a little'
    Tuva: boš
    Tofalar: bo'š
    Kirghiz: boš
    Kazakh: bos
    Noghai: bos
    Bashkir: buš
    Balkar: boš
    Gagauz: boš
    Karaim: boš, bos
    Karakalpak: bos
    Salar: boš
    Kumyk: boš
    Comments: EDT 376, VEWT 82, ЭСТЯ 2, 203-204, Мудрак Дисс. 126, Федотов 1, 457, Stachowski 63. The Chuv. form has a regular reflex, presupposing a final vowel. Turk. *boĺa-n- > bošan- > Mong. busani- 'become empty, poor' (KW 63); *boĺ-u-g 'permission' > Mong. bošuɣ (Clark 1980, 41).

    Proto-Turkic: *boŕ ( ~ ō)
    Altaic etymology: Altaic etymology
    plus-8.png


    Meaning: grey
    Russian meaning: серый
    Old Turkic: boz (OUygh.)
    Karakhanid: boz (MK)
    Turkish: boz
    Tatar: büz
    Middle Turkic: boz (Sangl.)
    Uzbek: bụz
    Uighur: boz, bos
    Sary-Yughur: poz
    Azerbaidzhan: boz
    Turkmen: boz
    Oyrat: bos
    Kirghiz: boz
    Kazakh: boz
    Noghai: boz
    Bashkir: buδ
    Balkar: boz
    Gagauz: boz, bōz
    Karakalpak: boz
    Kumyk: boz
    Comments: EDT 388, VEWT 82, TMN 2, 335, ЭСТЯ 2, 171-173, Лексика 605. Turk. > Old Russ. bosɨj, dial. búsɨj, busój, see Аникин 147 (with lit.).
     
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