Words in Late Latin / Palabras en Latín Tardio

Discussion in 'Lingua Latina (Latin)' started by heyjvk, Feb 24, 2013.

  1. heyjvk New Member

    Puerto Rico
    Does anyone know a good resource to find words written in Late Latin? I can't seem to find a site that does translations from Classical Latin to Late Latin.

    Here are some of the words I am trying to translate (they are in Classical Latin, I want to know their equivalent in Late Latin):

    Alguien sabe un buen fuente para encontrar palabras en latín tardio? No puedo encontrar ni un sitio que traduce palabras del latín classico al latin tardio.

    Aquí están unas de las palabras que quiero traducir:

  2. jrundin Senior Member

    USA, English
    Some of the words on your list are not spelled in a standard fashion:
    magister, jocus, hordeolus, caelum, cubitus, totus, speculum.

    Is this a linguistics assignment? Or a history of Romance languages assignment?
    In that case, you could look at this book:

    "Late Latin" is not really a name for a particular form of Latin. It is a general
    term for the Latin found in texts left from around 200 A.D to around 600 or
    700 A.D. In fact, there is no linguistic definition of Late Latin. It is merely
    a term for a period of time in the language--after Classical and before Medieval

    During that period, Latin had become an
    entrenched Language in much of the western
    Mediterranean, and there are many variations in the language at that point
    and much new orthography, vocabulary, syntax, and
    grammar. Some new elements came from Latin that
    previously had only been oral; some came from people
    like the Germans; some came from innovations in written Latin itself.
    But the changes were not uniform. An innovation in Spain,
    for instance, might not have been present in Italy.

    The result of this is that there is no "standard Late Latin Language." The
    writers who produced documents in Late Latin probably thought that they were
    just writing Latin. And, to the extent that they thought there was
    a standard Latin, they probably aspired to the standards of Classical Latin,
    even if it was quite out of their linguistic reach.

    That being said, there is no uniform way to turn classical Latin into Late Latin.
    There are, however, trends and commonalities across the whole corpus of
    Late Latin. You'll likely find guides to that in Souter's "Glossary of Later
    Latin" I mentioned above. You could also look at individual authors or sets of documents.
    One, could, for instance, look at Isidore of Seville (if you consider his Latin
    to be late and not medieval) or Egeria and get a good scholarly edition. It is quite
    likely that a good scholarly edition will describe how the Latin deviates
    from Classical Latin. Then you could use that author or a group or authors
    or texts as a guide.

    But, even then, there remains a problem. Such texts are often corrected
    by later copiers of the manuscripts so that the Latin is more in line
    with Classical practice. So, even the text of Isidore or Egeria
    is problematic for recovering Late Latin.

    I hope this was helpful.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  3. CapnPrep Senior Member

    It looks to me like some kind of assignment, too. One that was not assigned to us…

    heyvyk, could you clarify a bit why you want these translations? And maybe propose some answers yourself, so we have have some idea what you mean by "equivalent in Late Latin". As jrundin explained, this can be interpreted in many ways.

    Welcome to WRF.
  4. Serafín33

    Serafín33 Senior Member

    No, estrictamente hablando no están en latín clásico. Se les ha quitado la -m del acusativo (magistrum, mulierem), como es típico de la lingüística histórica de las lenguas romancdes. Bueno, excepto por "populus" y "porcus" que aparecen como tales y no como lo que se esperaría normalmente, "populu" y "porcu" (de populum y porcum), por alguna razón extraña. (No tengo ni idea de por qué hacen eso de quitarle la -m al acusativo en lingüística histórica.)

    No, strictly speaking they're not in Classical Latin. They have had the accusative -m ending taken off (magistrum, mulierem), as it's typical of historical Romance linguistics. Well, except that "populus" and "porcus" appear as such and not as the expected "populu" and "porcu" (from populum and porcum) for some weird reason. (I have no idea why they do that thing of taking off the accusative -m in historical linguistics.)

    Estoy de acuerdo con CapnPrep de que deberías contarnos qué en verdad quieres decir con "traducir al latín tardío". Es decir, no es que las forma estándar de escribir las palabras haya cambiado significativamente en períodos posteriores del latín, así que de alguna manera, las grafías correctas de estas palabras (magistrum, jocum, hordeolum...) serían su forma en el latín de cualquier período.

    I agree with CapnPrep that you should tell us what you really mean by "translating into Late Latin". I mean, it's not like standard spellings changed that significantly into later periods of Latin, so in a sense, using the correct spellings of these words (magistrum, jocum, hordeolum...) would be their form in the Latin of any period.

    Hallo curioso que todas esas palabras tienen descendientes directos en español (es decir, tienen palabras que descendiendo directamente no son préstamos del latín tomadas durante el Renacimiento o algo así). Hordeolum > orzuelo, iocu > juego, speculum > espejo. Me imagino que esta lista de palabras viene de una clase tuya sobre la historia del español. Sin embargo aun así no entiendo bien lo que preguntas...

    I find it interesting that all those words have direct descendants in Spanish (that is, they have words coming down directly and so they're not loan words from Latin taken during the Renaissance or the like). Hordeolum > orzuelo, iocu > juego, speculum > espejo. I suppose that this word list comes from some class of yours about the history of Spanish. However, even then I still don't really understand what you're asking about...

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