Words in Romance languages with Latin etymon loquor/loquī

clevermizo

Senior Member
English (USA), Spanish
Hello all -

I should preface this by saying that I've only dabbled in Latin. However, I'm curious if any of the Romance languages have simple words whose reflex is the deponent Latin verb to speak loquor/loquī. Is this completely obsolete? I know that Vulgar Latin formations like fabulāre and parabolāre have dominated most Romance languages that I can think of (as discussed in this thread about Portuguese falar) with the meaning of "to speak".

I was trying to think of individual words the other day but I really couldn't (in Spanish, that is). I looked up Spanish loco for example, but that has an Arabic origin.

Can anyone else think of any Romance words deriving from the loqu- root? I'm looking mostly for "simple" words because clearly higher register words exist (like elocuencia in Spanish). Higher register words were probably borrowings from Latin, so elocuencia is directly from Lat. eloquentia and not derived in Spanish natively from loqu-.

Thanks.:D
 
  • miguel89

    Senior Member
    Spanish
    I found this in an old Etymological Dictionary (link):
    5122. loquela „Beredsamkeit”. [Venez., bellun., vicent. okela; vicent. okela de la gola, bellun. okela, veron. lokela, lukela „Zäpfchen im Halse” AGIItal. XVI, 373].

    bellun. = Mdart von Belluno.
    vicent. = vicentinisch
    venez. = venezianisch
    veron. = veronesisch
    However, I couldn't confirm it with other sources.
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    I should preface this by saying that I've only dabbled in Latin. However, I'm curious if any of the Romance languages have simple words whose reflex is the deponent Latin verb to speak loquor/loquī. Is this completely obsolete? I know that Vulgar Latin formations like fabulāre and parabolāre have dominated most Romance languages that I can think of (as discussed in this thread about Portuguese falar) with the meaning of "to speak".
    I can think of a couple in Portuguese (eloquência, locutor, locução, loquaz, ventríloquo...), but all of these are clearly cultisms. There may well be no direct descendants of loquor/loquī.
     

    XiaoRoel

    Senior Member
    galego, español
    Los derivados de loquela (M. L. 5122) en dialectos italianos, citados por Miguel89, son los únicos derivados tradicionales de esta familia de loquor en lenguas romances. En las demás lenguas romances, especialmente en las modalidades literarias, son muy abundantes los cultismos tomados de esta familia de palabras latina.
     

    robbie_SWE

    Senior Member
    Trilingual: Swedish, Romanian & English
    Hi!

    Could the Romanian loc ("place", from Latin lǒcus) be related? There is also a verb a locui ("to reside") which seems to be linked to the word mentioned above. But I'm probably wrong; in that case I'm sorry :(

    :) robbie
     

    clevermizo

    Senior Member
    English (USA), Spanish
    Hi!

    Could the Romanian loc ("place", from Latin lǒcus) be related? There is also a verb a locui ("to reside") which seems to be linked to the word mentioned above. But I'm probably wrong; in that case I'm sorry :(

    :) robbie

    No. That Latin root is as you established locus and lot loquī. C and QU represented different sounds in Latin (/k/ and /kʷ/), although in many Romance languages they can be synonymous.
     

    robbie_SWE

    Senior Member
    Trilingual: Swedish, Romanian & English
    No. That Latin root is as you established locus and lot loquī. C and QU represented different sounds in Latin (/k/ and /kʷ/), although in many Romance languages they can be synonymous.

    I had a suspicion that I was wrong! I presume that Romanian acquired words like locvace, elocvent, elocvenţă, locutor, locuţiune, ventriloc etc. pretty late (probably during the 18th and 19th century as neologisms). But I believe that the key in finding remnants of the Latin loquor/loquī is to analyse vocabulary in the most archaic and isolated Romance languages, like Sardinian and Romanian.

    If I think of any word which might be related, I will return!


    :) robbie
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    No. That Latin root is as you established locus and lot loquī. C and QU represented different sounds in Latin (/k/ and /kʷ/), although in many Romance languages they can be synonymous.
    But the supine stem of loqui has a "c" (locut-us). Die Difference between "c" and "qu" in locus vs loqui does not necessarily exclude a relation.
     

    XiaoRoel

    Senior Member
    galego, español
    Lokʷ- ante vocal > loqu-, ante consonante locu-. Son grafías diferentes de la misma raíz en contextos fonéticos diferentes.
    Al respecto de la inicial stl- (supuesta para locus y lis), Ernout no la admite, como no admite la indoeuropeidad de esta inicial de palabra.
    En cuanto a loquor, loquier es la forma arcaica de los infinitivos de forma pasiva. Tampoco esta palabra, que substituyó a fari y que sirvió para traducir los términos de la retórica griega, luego casi desaparecida en romance empujada por la palabra del latín cristiano parabolare, o del vulgar fabulari, tiene una etimología cierta: sólo hay una relación con lenguas célticas y no muy clara.
     

    Gita-Etymology

    Member
    English - US
    Tough one. Maybe there are no reflexes? Posner's book "The Romanace Languages" (Page 138) has loqui on a list of words that "disappeared completely from the inherited vocabulary" to be replaced by "fabulare, narrare, parabolare, .." etc.
     

    Ottilie

    Senior Member
    Romanian(1st) / Russian (2nd)
    Hi!

    Could the Romanian loc ("place", from Latin lǒcus) be related? There is also a verb a locui ("to reside") which seems to be linked to the word mentioned above. But I'm probably wrong; in that case I'm sorry :(

    :) robbie

    Yes,it's related. DEX says din Lat. locus.
     

    Jimbobmacca

    New Member
    English
    Hello all -

    I should preface this by saying that I've only dabbled in Latin. However, I'm curious if any of the Romance languages have simple words whose reflex is the deponent Latin verb to speak loquor/loquī. Is this completely obsolete? I know that Vulgar Latin formations like fabulāre and parabolāre have dominated most Romance languages that I can think of (as discussed in this thread about Portuguese falar) with the meaning of "to speak".

    I was trying to think of individual words the other day but I really couldn't (in Spanish, that is). I looked up Spanish loco for example, but that has an Arabic origin.

    Can anyone else think of any Romance words deriving from the loqu- root? I'm looking mostly for "simple" words because clearly higher register words exist (like elocuencia in Spanish). Higher register words were probably borrowings from Latin, so elocuencia is directly from Lat. eloquentia and not derived in Spanish natively from loqu-.

    Thanks.:D
    in Spanish "locuaz"
    in Catalan "locutor"
    in English (not romance I know) "loquacious" from the French "loquace"

    Also in Englsh/Spanish interlocutor
     

    Swatters

    Senior Member
    French - Belgium, some Wallo-Picard
    in Spanish "locuaz"
    in Catalan "locutor"
    in English (not romance I know) "loquacious" from the French "loquace"

    Also in Englsh/Spanish interlocutor
    Those are all learned borrowings from Latin during the second millenium AD, as was pointed in the thread 11 years ago already, while the OP was looking at words from that root that kept being used since the time of the Empire. You'd expect the intervocalic /kʷ/ to lenite in an inherited word in Western Romance, yielding descendants like Spanish *loguaz or French *louvai.

    I tried searching through the FEW for descendants of loqu- in Gallo-Romance, but all of them were learned borrowings, except possibly loquelle, a borrowing from Italo-Romance loquela
     

    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    I very much doubt there are any inherited reflexes of loquor in the Romance languages. As it's been said, all Romance languages but for Romanian base their 'speak' on either parabolare or fabulare/fabellare.
     

    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    In Tuscany we (used to) say ragionare or discorrere instead of parlare.
    Interesting! Enraonar is also common in Catalan for parlar. I've always found that a cool form, because it's like saying that, to speak, you have to reason what you say. :)

    Those I mentioned were obviously the common duality, but I'm sure we could even find more. Charrar in Aragonese, for instance, is frequently used for 'to speak' without necessarily implying 'chatter', even if both fablar and parlar also exist in the language.
     

    Swatters

    Senior Member
    French - Belgium, some Wallo-Picard
    In Tuscany we (used to) say ragionare or discorrere instead of parlare.
    From rationare, resnier was used in Old French for talking at length, and words from the same root still appear in that sense in Gallo-Romance (e.g. Wall arinnî to start aggressively talking with, Occ. se razounà talk together, FProvencal razunà talk) and elsewhere (Piemontese arsunè to greet).

    Discourir exists in Modern French (talk at length), but it's a learned borrowing.
    In French, causer means to talk/converse, however it does tend slightly toward the pejorative.
    Causer is a medieval Latin loan, initially meaning "plead one's case in court", which then got extended to all kind of speech activities, so I wouldn't expect it to be common elsewhere in Romance, though it's the main talking verb in some Oïl varieties.

    Ibero-Romance charrar seems to be of onomatopoeic origin, as are French jaser and blablater. "Jaser"-type words are sometimes the main talking verbs in Oïl varieties (wall. djåser), while blablater is very recent coinage. There's also bavarder, "have a conversation", that's another internal coinage from bave (drool).

    Fauler (< Fabulare) is found once in a Old Provencal text, but that seems to be it for that root in Gallo-Romance. Hablar was borrowed as hâbler in Middle French, but with the meaning "lie, exagerate".
     

    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    Ibero-Romance charrar seems to be of onomatopoeic origin,
    Indeed, but the word could have originated in Sardinia or Italy, not in Iberia. Ciarrare exists in Sardinian and ciarlare in Italian seems to be attested earlier than in Iberia, appearing already in Boccaccio, with dissimilation maybe based on influence from parlare. The first attestations in the languages spoken in Iberia seem to be from 16th century or later (in the case of Spanish, probably favoured by the loanword of ciarlatano > charlatán).

    What I wonder is whether there is one or rather two sources/pathways here, the Aragonese/Catalan/Occitan + Sardinian one (charrar/xerrar/ciarrare) and the Italian + Spanish/Portuguese (ciarlare/charlar/chalrar). The weird one would be Asturian using 'charrar' then.
     
    Top