You haven't to stay up this late.

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  • sound shift

    Senior Member
    English - England
    I think it depends on where the speaker is from. The note on the last line of page 1) of this explains that "You haven't to let it get too dry" can, when spoken by someone from North Yorkshire (England), mean "You're not supposed to let it get too dry." The note is there precisely because this is not standard BrE. "You haven't to + infinitive" is not a model for imitation by a learner of English.
     
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    marco1122

    Senior Member
    italiana
    Miss Julie, I know that " I don't have to" is similar to "I don't need to" and "I have not to" i similar to "I mustn't", right?


    Thank you very much Sound Shift, indeed my book don't explain this rule, I will not use "haven't to"!!!!
     
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    Thomas Tompion

    Senior Member
    English - England
    I think it depends on where the speaker is from. The note on the last line of page 1) of this explains that "You haven't to let it get too dry" can, when spoken by someone from North Yorkshire (England), mean "You're not supposed to let it get too dry." The note is there precisely because this is not standard BrE. "You haven't to + infinitive" is not a model for imitation by a learner of English.
    Hi SS,

    I don't often disagree with you, and you must forgive me for asking why you don't consider this standard BE.

    It's a form used by Thomas Hardy, Rudyard Kipling, and Bernard Shaw (many times). It's also used by some AE authors.

    Here's a bit of a poem by Robert Frost:

    There are three stones of slate and one of marble,
    Broad-shouldered little slabs there in the sunlight
    On the sidehill. We haven't to mind those.


    I think I agree with those who hold that I haven't to do X doesn't mean I don't have to do X but is, rather, a weak form of I mustn't do X.
     

    marco1122

    Senior Member
    italiana
    Sorry!!! It's my mistake, I would say "haven't" without got!
    Now I've
    understood that it's a particular situation, and it's similar to negative form of to "be supposed to"!!
     

    sound shift

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Hi SS,

    I don't often disagree with you, and you must forgive me for asking why you don't consider this standard BE.

    It's a form used by Thomas Hardy, Rudyard Kipling, and Bernard Shaw (many times). It's also used by some AE authors.

    Here's a bit of a poem by Robert Frost:

    There are three stones of slate and one of marble,
    Broad-shouldered little slabs there in the sunlight
    On the sidehill. We haven't to mind those.


    I think I agree with those who hold that I haven't to do X doesn't mean I don't have to do X but is, rather, a weak form of I mustn't do X.
    You're forgiven, Thomas! I don't consider it standard BrE because it is absent from all the grammars (Dutch, French, Spanish) in my possession. I have only heard it spoken by Yorkshiremen and Yorkshirewomen (and the same goes for You've to). In view of what you say about its literary pedigree, I speculate that it was once widespread but has retreated from large areas of the BrE realm.
     
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    velisarius

    Senior Member
    British English (Sussex)
    I don't think I've ever been aware of the meaning Thomas Tompion ascribes to "you haven't to'. A search at random gave me these examples:

    Oscar Wilde:
    One who is an Emperor and King may stoop down to pick up a brush for a painter, but when the democracy stoops down it is merely to throw mud. And yet the democracy have not so far to stoop as the emperor. In fact, when they want to throw mud they have not to stoop at all. But there is no necessity to separate the monarch from the mob; all authority is equally bad.
    Oscar Wilde. The Soul of Man under Socialism

    It clearly means there that "they don't need to" stoop down.

    Ralph Waldo Emerson on Gifts:

    For common gifts, necessity makes pertinences and beauty everyday, and one is glad when an imperative leaves him no option, since if the man at the door have no shoes, you have not to consider whether you could procure him a paint-box.

    Again, in this context I'd say it means "you don't need to..." (and indeed it's quite a relief not to have to worry about a suitable gift). Some writers may use it to mean "must not do X", but that wouldn't be true in every case.
     

    anahiseri

    Senior Member
    Spanish (Spain) and German (Germany)
    Obligation: You have to = You've got to
    No obligation: You don't have to = You haven't got to
    Prohibition: You mustn't
    This is the standard grammar, I suppose there may be dialectal variations.
     

    london calling

    Senior Member
    UK English
    In my experience I've never heard it used in contemporary English in the south of England, only by people from the Midlands and the north of England ( for example by my grandfather, who was originally from Lancashire).
     
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    Thomas Tompion

    Senior Member
    English - England
    In my experience I've never heard it used in contemporary the south of England, only by people from the Midlands and the north of England ( for example by my grandfather, who was originally from Lancashire).
    That's interesting: I come from South Manchester where it was standard, and I never realised it seemed peculiar to some speakers until I read here that grammar books denounced it.
    Obligation: You have to = You've got to
    No obligation: You don't have to = You haven't got to
    Prohibition: You mustn't
    This is the standard grammar, I suppose there may be dialectal variations.
    This is omitting to mention the usage I was quoting.

    You haven't to - you don't need to or, in the right context, you must not.
     
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