you purified Elis from its bad smells

Serrand

Senior Member
France French
Hello,

I wonder how to translate "you purified Elis from its bad smells".

Here is my try : "εσύ ως Ήλιδα της κάθαρσης των κακών οσμών"

Is it OK ?

Thank you for your help.
 
  • dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    I believe it simply means "(εσύ, probably Hercules) καθάρισες* την Ήλιδα από τις κακές της οσμές", in the Subject-Verb-Object-etc. English word order, and you just got it in a complicated way.


    *καθήρες (<καθαίρω=κάνω κάθαρση) in ancient Greek.
     

    Αγγελος

    Senior Member
    Greek
    I believe it simply means "(εσύ, probably Hercules) καθάρισες* την Ήλιδα από τις κακές της οσμές", in the Subject-Verb-Object-etc. English word order, and you just got it in a complicated way.
    *καθήρες (<καθαίρω=κάνω κάθαρση) in ancient Greek.
    In ancient Greek it would be εκάθαρας. καθαίρω = cleanse comes from καθαρός and has nothing to do with καθ+αίρω.
     

    dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    In ancient Greek it would be εκάθαρας.
    You are completely wright.
    I suggested the word καθήρες as an alternative for καθάρισες in modern Greek, therefore I write it in μονοτονικό, and I suggest its etymology from the verb καθαίρω that derives from καθαρός, as you mention. Καθήρα may not be a completely 'correct' word in modern Greek, but many of us would use it at such a context (in order to distinguish cleaning from cleansing) and many more, I think, would understand it.
     

    Αγγελος

    Senior Member
    Greek
    I still think καθήρες meaning "you cleansed" is wrong.
    καθαίρω (from καθαρός) is an ancient Greek verb, no longer in current use. Even in the well-known Βασιλεύ ουράνιε prayer, we say «και καθάρισον ημάς από πάσης κηλίδος», don't we? If we are to use it, we must use it according to its ancient conjugation; and its ancient aorist was εκάθηρα or εκάθαρα. The aorist subjunctive would be more usable in modern Greek: you could conceivably say «να αποκαθάρουν τη χώρα από το άγος» and you would be understood, at least by those who know what άγος means.
    The form καθήρα, with the stress on the penult, would seem to be the aorist of a different verb καθαίρω, a compound of κατά and αίρω, which ought to mean "to lift down", whatever that might mean. There is no such compound verb in either ancient or modern Greek.
    That leaves unanswered the question of how to say 'cleanse, purify' as distinct from 'clean' in modern Greek. Unless you dare use αποκαθαίρω, with its aorist απεκάθαρα, I am afraid you have to resort to periphrastic expressions: κάνω κάθαρση, τελώ καθαρμό, απομακρύνω τις προσμίξεις (in the literal sense of purifying a substance) etc.
     

    Acestor

    Senior Member
    Greek
    I will agree that the best forms for the second person are ἐκάθηρας and ἐκάθαρας. I did a search on the TLG for the third person forms, as they are more frequent, and I ended up with 179 hits for ἐκάθηρε or ἐκάθηρεν versus 17 only for ἐκάθαρε or ἐκάθαρεν.
    In Pausanias I even came across "ὡς ἐκάθηρεν Ἡρακλῆς τὴν Ἠλείαν χώραν". So I hope this settles it.
     

    ioanell

    Member
    Greek
    After the matter with the correct form of the verb καθαίρω (=cleanse) has been fully settled with all the very useful explanations contained in the previous posts, perhaps we might say here that a compound verb καθαίρω (which would give an aorist καθῆρα) has never existed, as was correctly said, because such a verb couldn’t be formed from κατά and αἴρω, as αἴρω doesn’t have an aspiration on “αί” (or more correctly in front of ΑΙΡΩ), but a verb “καταίρω” did really exist in ancient Greek with the meanings of “1. swoop down on, for birds or even humans and 2. call at, sail into, enter, a port, for ships”.
     

    Scholiast

    Senior Member
    For clarification: classical Greek has two separate (though easily confusable) verbs, viz.:
    1. καθαιρῶ (from κατά + αἱρέω), an ε- contracted verb meaning to 'take down', hence 'demolish', 'put down', 'destroy', the aorist of which is usually the strong form καθεῖλον;
    2. the uncontracted καθαίρω (notice the different accentuation), from, or related to, the adjective καθαρ-ός (meaning 'pure', 'clean', 'clear'), and the primary stem is the same as that of the adjective, καθαρ-; the prepositional prefix κατά has nothing to do with this. The aorist is usually ἐκάθηρα, sometimes, especially in later Greek, ἐκάθαρα.
    Σ
     
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